HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 56 - SailNet Community
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post #551 of Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Going 19 knots and hitting a shipping container/ dead head? Hitting a whale? Losing a plank? Loosened seams and engine/pump failure?

Hmmm hitting the Gulf Stream 40 knots wind against current wouldn't do it, you think?

Guess where this photo is taken. Notice the wave is breaking onto, from above, a full size ship. Not a 130 foot Wooden sailboat. Remember 3 were washed overboard in one wave. Only one got to the liferaft. Must have been a good wave.
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post #552 of Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The picture you posted has little to do with the sea conditions that were actually pictured in the Bounty sinking. That's exactly what I am getting at. That picture looks like something from a North Sea storm and I can't see the slightest significance in posting it. What's the point? The pictures of the Bounty adrift or the pictures looking down from the chopper just don't show those kinds of conditions. Not only that but where they ran into trouble was well southwest and away from the center of the storm. They were in TS force winds. The reported wind was 40 knots or so, due east, not NE, indicating it was not opposing the GS and heaping up the seas. Getting into a lifeboat is difficult to impossible for many folks in calm conditions, something not publicized enough. Getting from a sinking ship up into a liferaft in moderate seas is not easy, especially with a thermal suit on. From what I've been able to learn, IMO, it will be determined that she went down primarily because the pumps stopped working and she flooded, not because she was overwhelmed by high seas and breaking waves. And again, she should not have been there to begin with.

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post #553 of Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
Again , I am no expert, but is 19 knots even feasible considering the hull and rudder design not to mention conditions? These ships are designed for 5-10 knots, and I cannot imagine what high speed would be like......on giant waves.

This is beyond my knowledge but seems questionable.
No, it is not feasible, anyone who thinks a pig like the BOUNTY could have averaged a speed of 19 knots over a period of 3 hours in that position is dreaming... There simply has to be something skewed about those reported positions/times...

The great Donald Mackay's clipper ship LIGHTNING held the record for the longest day's run, 436 miles for an average of 18 knots...



To suggest that the BOUNTY, with a hodgepodge crew of 16, could have exceeded such an average even for a portion of a day, is absurd...

Just my opinion, of course... (grin)
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post #554 of Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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No, it is not feasible, anyone who thinks a pig like the BOUNTY could have averaged a speed of 19 knots over a period of 3 hours in that position is dreaming... There simply has to be something skewed about those reported positions/times...
I totally agree it sounds incredible, and is only being discussed because the available data gives us that 3 hr figure of 19 kts:
2012-Oct-28 13:33 N 34°38' W 073°21' 58[nm] 19.1[kts]

On the "for" side we are dealing with a ship in a hurricane, not on a regular clipper run, and it is only for three hours. With following winds blowing that massive stern and freeboard down surfable waves it might just be possible for a 180ft vessel to cover that much ground (if the SOG calculation included significant favourable current, such as a gulf stream back eddy). But I have no experience of the sailing characteristics of a tall ship such as the Bounty.

On the "against" side, if you scroll down the data log for the reported positions on the 26th you get a 9 min log of distance run of 8nm at an average speed of 54 knots!!!
2012-Oct-26 13:33 N 39°37' W 071°15' 8 54.0
So that data must be incorrect (unless someone took the beacon for a short helicopter ride). Does anyone have experience of the sailwx.info Ship tracker, and its reliability (or otherwise)? Is the fact that both entries show a time of 13:33 in anyway significant?
The ship's log or a crew member could shed some light...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Rear Admiral Steven Ratti, commander of the Coast Guard's 5th District, ordered the formal investigation on Thursday after the Coast Guard suspended its search for the Bounty's missing captain, 63-year-old Robin Walbridge....

"This has been classified as a major marine casualty due to the loss of life and the gross tonnage of the vessel," Coast Guard spokesman Lieutenant Michael Patterson said....

"This was an unprecedented storm," he said. "What were their sailing intentions? Was their intent to ride it out in what they thought was the safest place to be? Professional mariners know how to take avoidance measures," he added....

Coast Guard officials have debriefed the 14 surviving members of the crew, who were taken to the Coast Guard's Elizabeth City Air Station and turned over to the Red Cross. "We were able to get those initial narratives first-hand from the survivors rescued," he said.

The investigation could take months and involve hearings, which will likely be open to the public, Patterson said.

Imagine that.


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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I heard from a reported professional member of gcaptain who we know is not really a professional member, but you can always lie about you qualifications on the internet that the Bounty was trying to sail to Portugal with contraband.

Unless yoiu have a verifiable name with verifiable crdentials it is just speculation as usual. The point that it is posted on gCaptain doesnt ensure that the posters are anymore than internet posters,

The inquiry will utilize professional testimony as well as expert witness. Who wants to bet me that NONE of the gCaptain internet bloggers will be called as professional witnesses.
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post #557 of Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
The picture you posted has little to do with the sea conditions that were actually pictured in the Bounty sinking. That's exactly what I am getting at. That picture looks like something from a North Sea storm and I can't see the slightest significance in posting it. What's the point? The pictures of the Bounty adrift or the pictures looking down from the chopper just don't show those kinds of conditions. Not only that but where they ran into trouble was well southwest and away from the center of the storm. They were in TS force winds. The reported wind was 40 knots or so, due east, not NE, indicating it was not opposing the GS and heaping up the seas. Getting into a lifeboat is difficult to impossible for many folks in calm conditions, something not publicized enough. Getting from a sinking ship up into a liferaft in moderate seas is not easy, especially with a thermal suit on. From what I've been able to learn, IMO, it will be determined that she went down primarily because the pumps stopped working and she flooded, not because she was overwhelmed by high seas and breaking waves. And again, she should not have been there to begin with.


Actually the conditions were described by the rescue team and by members of the crew:


Quote:
"We determined a safe time when we knew the ship would still be stable and we could get everyone on deck and change our focus from saving the ship to saving every life," said..first mate... Svendsen,...

But the ship's leadership lost all control once a giant wave broadsided the ship, knocking some of the crew -- already in their survival suits -- into the roiling sea....

But three days into the voyage, the crew found themselves in the middle of the ferocious storm, with heaving waves three stories high.

"The weather was so bad and we had so little control," said Douglas Faunt.

"It took every ounce of my strength to focus through to survive," said first mate Svendsen.

Winds were tearing at the crew at 70 mph, and by the fourth day the ship, which .. had been taking on water for 24 hours.

HMS Bounty Survivors: Crew of Ship Sunk During Hurricane Sandy Speak of Lost Shipmates - ABC News

Quote:
WITN-TV reporter Alize Proisy, who was at the Air Station were the survivors were brought in, reported that Coast Guard rescue swimmer Randy Haba helped remove crewmembers from a lifeboat and also helped save one crew member floating alone in the water.

Haba told WITN that that wind-driven ocean at the scene was some of the biggest seas he has ever been in.

1 dead, captain missing after 14 saved as Bounty sinks



Yes, you are right in saying that " it will be determined that she went down primarily because the pumps stopped working and she flooded" but probably the sea conditions had to do with the ingress of water that probably shorted the generators that powered the pumps:



Quote:
On Sunday evening, the Bounty's crew sent word that there was an electrical problem on board. Walbridge said the situation was under control and could wait until morning. The Coast Guard was notified and stayed in contact with the ship through the night.

But by early Monday, the Bounty was taking on water and its engines had failed.

HMS Bounty: 'We will bring our captain home' :: WRAL.com

Quote:
We received a distress call for Bounty at 1830 Sunday evening October 28th that the Ship lost power and the pumps were unable to keep up with the dewatering.
1 dead, captain missing after 14 saved as Bounty sinks



I think that there is a strong possibility that what happen and that sealed the fate of the ship was something very similar to what happened in 1998 under the command of the same Captain. This time he run out of luck.



Quote:
"The HMS Bounty, which has helped keep tourism afloat in St. Petersburg for more than 20 years, almost sank this weekend near Charleston, S.C., after three of its bilge pumps failed....

the ship began to take water around 9:30 p.m. Saturday, said Coast Guard Lt.j.g. Simone Brisco....

Investigators say the ship began taking on water after it ran into a storm and caulking between the planks was loosened.

"It was not a phenomenal storm," said Lt. Jeff Carter, a senior investigating officer with the Coast Guard. But the weather was rough enough to bang it around, he said. After the caulking loosened, water began to seep inside.

The main dewatering pump, which operates on diesel fuel and had evidence of wear, failed first, Carter said.
The two backup pumps, which operate on electricity, failed after the wires got wet."

Southpinellas: 'Bounty' nearly sinks while headed to St. Petersburg

Regards

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Last edited by PCP; 11-11-2012 at 08:16 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Hmm... I am sorry about that. Right you are. The title says " Riding out the Storm Day2 "

Then there is this one labeled " Riding Out the Storm Day3"
150 miles East of Cape Hatteras- SalParadise
Ha a member of the the Bounty Prosceution team trying to pass off evidence that is not true. Imagine that. Well at least he had a picture instead of just trying to quote a gCaptain phantoms expert wintness

Just remeber " if it does not fit.........you MUST aquit."


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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
"It was not a phenomenal storm," said Lt. Jeff Carter, a senior investigating officer with the Coast Guard. But the weather was rough enough to bang it around, he said. After the caulking loosened, water began to seep inside.

The main dewatering pump, which operates on diesel fuel and had evidence of wear, failed first, Carter said.

The two backup pumps, which operate on electricity, failed after the wires got wet."
It's a shame they didn't stick closer to the original design.. and install big manual lift pumps like they used to use on these ships back in the good old days: "Man the pumps!!".. Sure the old-style pumps had blockage issues similar to modern ones, but at least they don't rely on diesel fuel and electrics to work.

Joking aside, safety requirements for most modern yachts dictate a manual bilge pump be fitted - to avoid exactly the scenario quoted above. Is this not the case for something like the HMS Bounty?

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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

19 knots in a wooden box made of logs....full of water....desisels which barely move the ship...30 ft waves...no 19 ft waves..... heading south....no heading east...do you know how ridiculous this speculation sounds. Why do it

Lets hear what the EYEWITNESSES say. The photo of the scene which was the CG rescue doent look like 30 ft waves.

We already have damned him for sailing away from port....now are we to critique his sailing angle.

I think there will be multiple causations. MULTIPLE
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