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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #561  
Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
It's a shame they didn't stick closer to the original design.. and install big manual lift pumps like they used to use on these ships back in the good old days: "Man the pumps!!".. Sure the old-style pumps had blockage issues similar to modern ones, but at least they don't rely on diesel fuel and electrics to work.

Joking aside, safety requirements for most modern yachts dictate a manual bilge pump be fitted - to avoid exactly the scenario quoted above. Is this not the case for something like the HMS Bounty?
Well, I would liked to have a question answered and I am sure it will be answered on the investigation:

In 1998 the main pump was a diesel one and they had two auxiliary electric ones.

Now, for what I understood (by photos taken recently, by a sailor that had visited the boat and even by what was said by Bounty organization) they had the two electrical pumps as main, powered by two generator and some kind of hydraulic pump powered by the engine.

Why was not the main Diesel pump replaced? It was replaced by an hydraulic pump run by the engine? That does not make much sense since a main pup should not be dependent from the ship engine to be powered.

Regards

Paulo
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  #562  
Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
That picture looks like something from a North Sea storm and I can't see the slightest significance in posting it. What's the point? .
Because the photo is from the Gulf Stream.
Wind against the current produces that and if you look at the bountys position before it "turned" east it was in the Gulf Stream in a ne where the GS goes NE. The plots are there in my earlier post to have a look at.

The later, last, photo of the bounty the ship had mover 30 nms and was then out of the GS. Photos of waves from above don't look big. We all know what it's like to be on deck and see a few wrapper, pull the camera out, but the pics look like we were in a millpond. Only the waves AT THE TIME OF THE DAMMAGE need to have been big.

Further, the strong norther lies (ne's if you like) were going on for days. And you don't need more that 30 knots against the Gulf Stream to pick up waves that will toss a boat like the bounty.

Remember the Bounty was NOT 180 foot long. It was only 120 to 130 feet on deck... Depending on whose stats you read(weird they could be 10 foot different!)

All my points I want to make are that we should not ever get into the Gulf Stream in wind against current.... And that's what I think has happened here.

It's just too inconceivable to see the ship going so close to the GS and not expect it to have felt the wind directly and opposite the current. Ne winds, ne set.

There's no way I want to test my hypothesis. My idea of heavy weather sailing is sitting at the bar! Why test the H in Hurricane? Why test the GraveYard of the Atlantic?

Mark
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  #563  
Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
"Man the pumps!!"..
The ship reported gaining 2 feet per hour on a 120 foot hull, 30 feet wide x2 feet...... That's 50,000 gallons per hour.

That's a vast amount of h2o
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  #564  
Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Remember the Bounty was NOT 180 foot long. It was only 120 to 130 feet on deck... Depending on whose stats you read(weird they could be 10 foot different!) Mark
More conflicting data!? The ULS Universal Licensing System data states the ship was 55 metres (or 180 ft). ULS License - Ship Compulsory Equipped License - WDD9114 - HMS BOUNTY ORGANIZATION LLC Whereas the USCG states it was Length (ft.): 108.4 Vessel Documentation Query

Something wrong somewhere?
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  #565  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Obviously the shorter measurement is for paying marinas.... And the larger for bragging at the bar!

General characteristics
Tonnage: 409 GT
181 NT
Length: 180 ft (54.9 m) sparred
120 ft (37 m) on deck
Beam: 31.6 ft (9.6 m)
Height: 111 ft (33.8 m)
Draft: 13 ft (4.0 m)
Depth: 21.3 ft (6.5 m)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bounty_(1960_ship)

Tonnage is up to... From 260 to 409 gt. does that mean anything?
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-11-2012 at 09:15 PM.
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  #566  
Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
The ship reported gaining 2 feet per hour on a 120 foot hull, 30 feet wide x2 feet...... That's 50,000 gallons per hour.

That's a vast amount of h2o
..and you can shift a vast amount of water with a 2-man mechanical lift pump. Sure, it's hard work and you'd only want to do it in an emergency, but that seems to be the situation they found themselves in.

I'm sure you've heard that "the best bilge pump in the world is a frightened crewman with a bucket". Think of this as the mechanical equivalent.
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  #567  
Old 11-11-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
The ship reported gaining 2 feet per hour on a 120 foot hull, 30 feet wide x2 feet...... That's 50,000 gallons per hour.
Markofsealief
Mark,

Where did you get this information?
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
The ship reported gaining 2 feet per hour on a 120 foot hull, 30 feet wide x2 feet...... That's 50,000 gallons per hour.
Markofsealife
Mark,

Where did you get this information?
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  #569  
Old 11-12-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Mark,

Where did you get this information?
Quote:

Coast Guard Vice Adm. Robert Parker, Operational Commander for the Atlantic Area, told ABC's "Good Morning America" that at the time of the distress call the ship was taking on two feet of water an hour.

source: Body recovered after 14 crewmembers rescued from sunken HMS Bounty | Fox News



I found out also a better description of the sea conditions at the time of the rescue:


quote:

...The scariest moment during the rescue occurred when a 30-foot wave crashed on top of one of the lifeboats with people still inside....“There were times I thought I was going to do body surfing and slide down the face of a 25-foot wave,” Todd said. “There were other times I had my head down, where I felt my feet get lifted over the top my head.”

Source:
Body recovered after 14 crewmembers rescued from sunken HMS Bounty | Fox News

Regards

Paulo
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  #570  
Old 11-12-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
It's a shame they didn't stick closer to the original design.. and install big manual lift pumps like they used to use on these ships back in the good old days: "Man the pumps!!".. Sure the old-style pumps had blockage issues similar to modern ones, but at least they don't rely on diesel fuel and electrics to work.

Joking aside, safety requirements for most modern yachts dictate a manual bilge pump be fitted - to avoid exactly the scenario quoted above. Is this not the case for something like the HMS Bounty?
Absolutely. I looked for a picture to show manual pumps but could not find either a picture or a description of any manual pumps. With a small crew, it is doubtful if they could have manned them for long but at least it may have delayed the sinking. As the old saying goes, the best bilge pump is a scared sailor with a bucket

As far as the crew's description of the sea condition, "three stories high"=24'--just about what has been documented. A 180/120' ship (she was even shorter on the wl) can handle a 24' sea but not with a bilge full of water. Equate it to a 60 footer in a 12' sea, uncomfortable but not dangerous. The ship becoming uncontrollable is a given with the bilge full of water. A "huge" wave, with the deck almost at sea level already was likely just one of the larger waves in a set that broke over them. Those sea conditions should not have sunk this vessel if she had not filled up with water.
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