HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 58 - SailNet Community

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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #571  
Old 11-12-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Because the photo is from the Gulf Stream.
Wind against the current produces that and if you look at the bountys position before it "turned" east it was in the Gulf Stream in a ne where the GS goes NE. The plots are there in my earlier post to have a look at.

The later, last, photo of the bounty the ship had mover 30 nms and was then out of the GS. Photos of waves from above don't look big. We all know what it's like to be on deck and see a few wrapper, pull the camera out, but the pics look like we were in a millpond. Only the waves AT THE TIME OF THE DAMMAGE need to have been big.

Further, the strong norther lies (ne's if you like) were going on for days. And you don't need more that 30 knots against the Gulf Stream to pick up waves that will toss a boat like the bounty.

Remember the Bounty was NOT 180 foot long. It was only 120 to 130 feet on deck... Depending on whose stats you read(weird they could be 10 foot different!)

All my points I want to make are that we should not ever get into the Gulf Stream in wind against current.... And that's what I think has happened here.

It's just too inconceivable to see the ship going so close to the GS and not expect it to have felt the wind directly and opposite the current. Ne winds, ne set.

There's no way I want to test my hypothesis. My idea of heavy weather sailing is sitting at the bar! Why test the H in Hurricane? Why test the GraveYard of the Atlantic?

Mark
Surely true. It was a stupid move to be there in the first place and it will be interesting to hear more about the incomprehensible decision to set sail into a hurricane. Getting into the Gulf Stream with wind and current opposed is a well known situation to avoid. The buoy stats above: 25' sea/12 sec period is not particularly life threatening to a 100' boat.
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  #572  
Old 11-12-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
It was a stupid move to be there in the first place and it will be interesting to hear more about the incomprehensible decision to set sail into a hurricane. Getting into the Gulf Stream with wind and current opposed is a well known situation to avoid. The buoy stats above: 25' sea/12 sec period is not particularly life threatening to a 100' boat.
I found a bit from the captain of the Picton Castle, dunno if its already been posted here...

Quote:
. Dan Moreland, the captain of another tall ship, the Picton Castle, described Walbridge as an experienced seaman, but told The Chronicle Herald of Halifax, Nova Scotia, that he couldn't understand the decision to put out to sea on Thursday with a crew of 11 men and five women, ranging in age from 20 to 66.

Picton Castle and the Bounty were both heading to the same public appearance featuring the traditional sailing vessels in St. Petersburg, which was scheduled for the weekend of Nov. 10-11. There was plenty of time to reach Florida and Moreland said it was an "easy decision" for him to stay in port for an extra week or more because of Sandy.

"It's black and white, there are no nuances with this," he told The Chronicle. "It's a huge system and that made the decision very simple."

Moreland said he had plenty of weather information that was raising red flags and when he first heard the Bounty was at sea, "I thought, 'You've got to be kidding.' "
Seems simple to me, heading south and a hurricane heading north... Stay at home.

Your point is good that 25 foot seas on a 12 second period is not life threatening. But when those waves stand up and fall over in wind against current it is threatening to stove in a plank or 2..... But it doesn't even need to do that, just flex the caulking out of a few at the bow.

Below is the only photo I can find to show the effect of current made waves, though we've all seen them in tide races etc.
Here the water is dead flat calm except in the tide race where the waves are standing up.
So 25 foot waves in 12 sec period will be completely different to 25 foot waves with 2 knots against them. They only needed to hit the edge of the Gulf Stream to get some extraordinary waves which could have stopped the engines through water ingress / electrical wetting etc.


Photo of rom NOAA Ocean Prediction Center
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-12-2012 at 09:00 AM.
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  #573  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

One incredible aspect of this disaster is that they knew she would open up when pounded and had done so in the past. It's a given that any carvel construction is going to leak when it gets into heavy seas. Having owned many wood boats, including Wheeler, Egg Harbor, and Richardson, I can attest to the fact that leaking is inherent. Many times, after pounding across Gardiner's Bay or Block Island Sound, bilge pumps would work to keep up with seams opening up. It's part of what makes this mystifying. There were all kinds of things to inform them ahead of time to stay put. It should have been an obvious decision.
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  #574  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

If find it quite curious that no member of the crew has even intimated that this was due to a freak occurrence, such as hitting something or a repair letting go. Why wouldn't they, if any were the case? Let's face it, as the terror subsides, they are all going to feel some degree of foolish for having set out on this passage. It must not have been as obvious to them beforehand, but its painfully so now. That alone might motivate one to suggest they couldn't see this coming, if it were true.

Perhaps they've been gagged by the USCG, but why? But defense counsel may have.
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  #575  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

They've probably been advised to avoid any public disclosure of their opinions until the facts have been determined from testimony under oath.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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They've probably been advised to avoid any public disclosure of their opinions until the facts have been determined from testimony under oath.
Unless you are the defendant, why would a witness be advised against disclosure of what they witnessed?

Also, unless required by law, it remains hard to believe that 14 people would all agree to voluntarily abide by the request. You can't get 14 people here to agree to anything.......
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  #577  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Unless you are the defendant, why would a witness be advised against disclosure of what they witnessed?

Also, unless required by law, it remains hard to believe that 14 people would all agree to voluntarily abide by the request. You can't get 14 people here to agree to anything.......
If one of them went public saying derogatory things about the company, or the captain, wouldn't they be opening themselves up to lawsuits if the inquiry found differently? They also could conceivably affect any prosecution of those at the front office of this company and may have been asked in no uncertain terms to keep their opinions to themselves.
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  #578  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Some lawyer last week defending some rap star, when the rap star tries to talk in court: Shut up. I don't dance, you don't talk in court.

I reckon the lawyers are probably right into it, and not to find out what happened, but to look for damages for their clients.

"Forced to go to sea on a death ship into the Graveyard of the Atlantic during a Hurricane" that's gotta be worth bucks if the crew listens to lawyers....

Sorry, that's not meant to be cynical.
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  #579  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
If one of them went public saying derogatory things about the company, or the captain, wouldn't they be opening themselves up to lawsuits if the inquiry found differently? They also could conceivably affect any prosecution of those at the front office of this company and may have been asked in no uncertain terms to keep their opinions to themselves.
I get your point, but it suggests there is something derogatory to say, which I suspect there is.

However, my point was, if there is something that would explain the lack of guilt, one would have expected to hear it and it seems unlikely to be quashed.
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  #580  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I know it's difficult but if you think of lawyers as scavenging seagulls this thing has got to be like a ship throwing a bucket of rotten bait over the side.
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