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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #591  
Old 11-12-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
The Caribbean 1500 starts in 8 days ...
Mark
Actually Mark it's happening now, and many boats have already arrived in Tortola:
http://www.facebook.com/carib1500
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  #592  
Old 11-12-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistermizu View Post
Actually Mark it's happening now, and many boats have already arrived in Tortola:
http://www.facebook.com/carib1500
Oh!
Oh?
What? They started without me?

What day is it?



Mark
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  #593  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
All this righteous pomposity from an anonymous troll who just wrote ( when someone handed him his ass) - Sal Paradise
Sal Paradise,

This is a rude remark, uncalled for and does not belong on the posting. It shows and inability to control your anger and discuss topics in a rational grownup way. In addition it does not add to the topic or help fellow sailors in general and is clearly a personal attack oriented comment. If you wish to be taken seriously future posting should not be personal in nature. Finally posts of a personal attack nature are against ther terms of service of this site.

Because you a relatively new with 60 posts you should understand that many us on on this site have learned to play fair with each other and can disagree strongly with each other from time to time or even freaquently and do it in a civil respectfully nature. Even with Paulo, whom I have had strong difference of opinion on this particular thread, I value his contributions to SN in many other threads and agree with him most of the time. Do not get caught up in your emotions here as it only the internet, but at the same time do not use that it is the internet to make personal characterizions of people. If that is YOUR agenda...try the off-topic threads where less emphasis is placed on political correctness.

You may not like I have to say... and you can disagree in an adult civil manner like all others...but what you cannot do is what you have done above. In the future keep your posts on the subject not on the subjects or your posts will be reported.

Respectfully,

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-13-2012 at 09:38 AM.
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  #594  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
What I care about is NOTHING to do with the Bountys ship, captain or crew. What I care about is the myriad of cruisers and potential cruisers out there who, each year, sail around Cape Hatteras, through, across or against the Gulf Stream either in winter, Novermber and December, or in the Hurricane season June, and October.

It's those people who cannot wait till some enquiry is complete in two years time. They need reminding NOW that they should sail in the correct season, watch the weather, do not go through the Gulf Stream in more than 20 knots from the North, Or North East, and do not play with Northers, Hurricanes, Rages or the like.

Those are the points that can be gleaned from this disaster now and need to be disseminated now!



The Caribbean 1500 starts in 8 days and remember two years ago a woman was killed when a boat tried to enter a cut in the Bahamas in a Norther in Rage conditions.
We have 8 days to ensure these folks know the responsibility is on themselves to set off in this race, not the organizers. If a Northerly comes up they must not go into the Gulf Stream, nor try the Bahamas cuts. Nor leave port at all if the weather is that bad.



I don't need a ticket from a Kornflake packet to tell me that.


Mark
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Mark,

You missed the boat literally...the 1500 has already started. Maybe you do need that tuicket from the Kornflake packet

Having done the Carribean 1500 3 times I can tell you if you need to learn this lesson from a Sailnet Blog on a social media site you dont have enough experience to be in the 1500 in the first place.

To beleive it is possible to avoid any northerners when traveling this route in Novem/ Dec when fronts cross the eastern seaboard every three to four days is not possible. In the past the organizers have started the race wheb they CROSS THE GULF STREAM on a day when the wind direction/ GS current are minimal.

So tell me since you brought it up....what were the lessons of Rule 62?

Dave
So let me ask since you mentioned it
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  #595  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
If anything, seems to me that most of the 'speculation' engaged in during the course of this thread has come from those who appear to be loosely "in defense of" of the captain. I have seen nothing to support the notion advanced that the BOUNTY might have been ordered to leave New London, for example - and yet, some hear have tossed that out as a potential mitigating factor... Aside from appearing purely speculative, it's a moot point, in any event. Even if the BOUNTY had been ordered to depart, Waldbridge still had many options to consider. He might have tried to get inside the hurricane barrier at New Bedford, or run up Narragannsett Bay... Or, put into a place like Pt Jefferson on the north shore of LI... Or, up the Hudson, or Delaware, or into Norfolk/Hampton Roads, or up the York or James Rivers... Any of which, he had time to do... No freakin' way would he have not only been ordered to leave New London, but to attempt to shoot the gap between Sandy and Hatteras, as well...-JonEisberg

Quote:
Our buddy, Chef, has taken on the mission to preserve the Captain's dignity until all the facts are known. He's as entitled to that mission as most of us are entitled to point out how stupid the Capt was.- Minniewaska

Respectfully JOn and Minnie and I do respect you both, I am NOT defending the Captains actions. From the beginning of this post I have said I beleived leaving with the knowledge of a brewing storm was not the correct thing to do and that he is ultimately responsible for that. Once we move away from that point that there is no need to keep coming back to to lay credence to the myriad of misinformation in a post, and the posts are examined for factual vs speculative information, it is my opinion that there is so much assumptions and misinformation that it is hard to see the contributing factors.

Why is that imnportant? If we just close the case here and say the Captain caused this and move on the only lesson learned....not like any of had to learn this lesson, is that he left in a storm. The constant barage of this in almost every post is the classic man needs a scapegoat and a person ton blame this on.

Those of you fixated by this continued blaring that the Captain shouldnt have left ( duh)
potentially are blinding yourselves and other readers to other factors here to learn from. Trying to learn from this is like trying to lkearn from a soap opera.

I have contended since my first post here not to rush to judgement on the causation of the actual sinking so that we may truly learn from this. Rush to judgement including posting erroneouos information, opinions from sources less thatn experienced, wild speculation does not in fact get at the causes of this accident and serves to confuse the issue as to what to beleive. I will not defebd the captains leaving as I beleive it was wrong. I will defend the need to keep an open mind and not rush to judgement on the other causitive agents.

Keeping an open mind in the midst of people calling you a troll is disconcerting, but still necessary. Keeping an open mind is important because there are other issues it appears here which may need attention to prevent a similar disaster from occuring where the Captain encounter heavy weather as a course of normal sailing schedule in one of these tall ship. I have already learned a great deal reading some of the "technical information" posted from REAL experts concerning sailing these vessels. I have a list of possible things which may be learned from this tradgedy, but have held off and will continue to until I really have more facts.

Continued posting about the Captains decision to leave is redundant. Its like getting a constant drum pounding sound which prevents you from hearing some of the other sounds. Those who do that and continue to prevent themselves from hearing some of the other sounds which we need to hear in order to learn more from this.

In addition those who challenge others facts on here are not doing it to be trolls, contrary in nature, picking a fight, defending the captain. Some people like myself do not like to be presented with suppostion and opinion cloaked as fact. If these half truths, conjecture and assumptions are allowed to stand they can be utilized to build other conclusions which are erroneous from them.
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“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner

Last edited by chef2sail; 11-13-2012 at 07:45 AM.
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  #596  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Mark,

So tell me since you brought it up....what were the lessons of Rule 62?

Dave
So let me ask since you mentioned it
Well, since there remains a great deal of factual information that apparently will forever be unknown to us regarding the RULE 62 tragedy, and we are still awaiting the final determination of an "official investigation" which appears likely never to occur...

Wouldn't any attempt to answer your question involve, by your definition, little more than "speculation" on our part? (grin)
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  #597  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Respectfully JOn and Minnie and I do respect you both, I am NOT defending the Captains actions. From the beginning of this post I have said I beleived leaving with the knowledge of a brewing storm was not the correct thing to do and that he is ultimately responsible for that. Once we move away from that point that there is no need to keep coming back to to lay credence to the myriad of misinformation in a post, and the posts are examined for factual vs speculative information, it is my opinion that there is so much assumptions and misinformation that it is hard to see the contributing factors.
Fair enough, I understand your position, and I stated myself poorly if I've implied that anyone here is essentially "defending" the actions of Walbridge...

What I've simply tried to make clear from the outset, is my doubt that there will come to light any mitigating factors or evidence that will make his decision to depart New London when he did, and attempt to shoot the gap between Sandy and Hatteras, appear to be anything short of "unfathomable", or impossible to justify in terms of any reasonable Risk/Reward analysis...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-13-2012 at 08:11 AM.
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  #598  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
What I've simply tried to make clear from the outset, is my doubt that there will come to light any mitigating factors or evidence that will make his decision to depart New London when he did, and attempt to shoot the gap between Sandy and Hatteras, appear to be anything short of "unfathomable", or impossible to justify in terms of any reasonable Risk/Reward analysis..JojnEisberg .
Agreed
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  #599  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Well, since there remains a great deal of factual information that apparently will forever be unknown to us regarding the RULE 62 tragedy, and we are still awaiting the final determination of an "official investigation" which appears likely never to occur...

Wouldn't any attempt to answer your question involve, by your definition, little more than "speculation" on our part? (grin)JOnEisberg
In the case of Rule 62 we have a few similar notes to this incident
The Captain made a poor decision and brought his vessel into an area where a "rage" was occuring and it contributed to the sinking of the boat.

Are you willing to state that the Captain of the Rulke 62 and his actions led to their deaths. He in charge made a decision which ultimately cost the life of people, therefore he was ultimately responsible, correct?

In the case of the Farlones...the CG found they "cut to close" Are you willing to state the Captain caused the death of the others on the boat?

Not meant to be argumentative...just want to see the thinking with these incidents also.

Dave
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  #600  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I...

In the case of the Farlones...the CG found they "cut to close" Are you willing to state the Captain caused the death of the others on the boat?

....

Dave
The captain is the responsible for the safety of its crew and should avoid taking any risks that can put it at risk. On the Farlones incident obviously the captain was responsible. it was my opinion at the time and it is the opinion of the CG when they say he "cut to close". He could have avoided that risk.

As a mitigating factor the Captain on the Farlone incident was a non professional captain with a racing crew participating in a race. I would say that will racing some risks are acceptable but not any that put on jeopardy the lives of the crew or the boat safety.

The hugely different factor between the two accidents is that one happened with an amateur captain the other one with a professional Captain.

For what I understood in the US and in some countries like UK any person can be a Captain of a private sailing boat without any qualifications to do that. That is not the case with a professional Captain that is a highly qualified professional and certified in that quality by a licence.

Regards

Paulo
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