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  #601  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
As a mitigating factor the Captain on the Farlone incident was a non professional captain with a racing crew participating in a race. I would say that will racing some risks are acceptable but not any that put on jeopardy the lives of the crew or the boat safety.-PCP
Not sure I draw the distinction about the mitigating factor here for the Farlone or Rule 62 Captains. He was the captain...he had many years experience...just because he didnt have or didnt apply for a Commercial captains liscence didnt mean that his responsibility to his crew and others was any different. I agree you would think that the BOounty Captain would have an icreased awareness due to his formal liscening and training.

I dont think the Captain of the Bounty, Captain of the Farlones, Captain of Rule 62 have any less responsibility to their crews than each other, nor do I think that mitigates their culpability or blame when it comes to contributing to the cause of the loss of life.

One lesson we may learn from this is that even though we have formal liscensing in place for commercial vessals, that does not mean that a mistake in judgement will not occur or is even less likely to occur. The formal training and experience should minimize the possibilities of this mistakes, buut as we have seen humans are fallible and make mistakes even if they have best of intentions.

One of the reasons it is important to me to try and find out why he left is that that thought process which countered the obvious danger the storm presented should be examined and brought out. That is what we all can learn to recognize in ourself and others...the danger signs when the thought process goes against conventional wisdom is occuring so it can be headed off. Some of this was mentioned in the Rule 62 incident where the Captain allegedly gave in to the cries of his crew iwth seasickness and rough conditions to attempt and insanely diffeicult passage in shallow water when a "rage" was occuring. The lesson for us was that apparently the Captain gave in to pressures he should have stood fast to and that at all times as the Captain that you must make the best decison for the keeping of life vs the cries of the the crew.

It isnt enough for me to know that the Bounty Captain is responsible. In line with this I have tried to cut away the obvious statements attributed to him before in interviews as they could be taken out of context or been a bit of "puffery" and exageration. The reason I think this is the eyewitness statements of many who have come in contact with, sailed with, or worked with this particular captain. Most of not all of them speak to his professionalism, teaching ability and investment to his crew as opposed to an ego maniac Ahab who wanted to tie himself to the mast before the storm like Ahab or Forrest Gump.

I like wingnwing and others on here had met the man if only briefly. The snap judgement in the short time I was around him was not that of an extreme risk taker, but of a gentleman who was professional and loved his vessels as well as tall ship sailing. So what is pertinent in my mind is why would a captain credentialled, experienced and stable like him make such an egerious error. Hopefully some of the eyewitness accounts will open this window so we can see.

Again I state in NO WAY am I asking for, inferring or even thinking this abbrogates his responsibility to make safe decisions and mitigates his actions of pushing away from the dock into the storm.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-13-2012 at 10:05 AM.
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  #602  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Are you willing to state that the Captain of the Rulke 62 and his actions led to their deaths. He in charge made a decision which ultimately cost the life of people, therefore he was ultimately responsible, correct?


Dave
You are weird. You won't make a strong opinion yourself as to what YOU would do, but you deride others who will. Then you directly ask someone to do something you will not do yourself.

So you may feel you scare people into your opinion but you don't scare me.

Rule 62s captain caused the death of one person but not taking the prudent measure of continuing on for 30nms to flat water, behind the Abacos, instead risking a narrow, shallow cut in a rage. Whether it was sea sickness, everyone on board was sick, or the pestering of other crew who were sick he did the wrong thing and killed someone.

I go back to a previous statement that you felt you needed to deride. Don't play in Northers or rages, hurricanes, wind against current, Cape a hatteras or the Gulf Stream

I will keep saying it till its driven through the skulls of all cruisers.
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  #603  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
So you may feel you scare people into your opinion but you don't scare me.-MarkseaofLife
Now you attributing motives to me...how weird when you dont know me. Hahah..I am trying to scare you?????. No I am not

Quote:
I go back to a previous statement that you felt you needed to deride. Don't play in Northers or rages, hurricanes, wind against current, Cape a hatteras or the Gulf StreamMarkseaoflife
If you carefully read you will see I agree with this. On many other of my posts over the years I have warned of the same consequences around Hatteras. I have been extremely cautious personally and have taken the ICW route around Hatteras execopt for the 3 Carribean 1500 ( outside the GS) and a couple of deliveries I have made south to Florida/ Georgia. As the crew on the deleiveies I would have bailed off the trip had I felt there was not enough of a weather window to make it around through Diamond Shoals safely.


It is common sense what you have said about sailing into hurricanes, northern winds agains the north moving Gulf Stream, blah blah blah..we get your drift.

Most experienced blue water sailors know that entering an inlet where tide or current against wind will create exaggerated conditions. Sailing in the Plum Gut/ Race/ Watch Hill Passage from the LI Sound for instance for 12 hours a day puts you in a wind against cureent situation and will lead to steeper waves, So will inlets, Delaware Bays as just a few examples....so what. It doesnt mean they are not traversable. People wait for a weather window to cross to the Bahamias again common knowledge as they are waiting for no northern component to the wind. So what you state sir is the obvious...we know it so why would anyone including me dispute that.

And sailing in a hurricane is a ridiculous unecessary risk of life whether he was in, near or a million miles away from the Gulf Stream.

Quote:
I will keep saying it till its driven through the skulls of all cruiser-sMarkofsealife
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Mission accomplished,Maybe time to find another mantra.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-13-2012 at 10:24 AM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Trying to stick to the message rather than who the messenger is, here's yet another opinion, from an industry newsletter, for what it's worth.

OP-ED: Loss of HMS Bounty: The Sea Wins Again | Maritime News | Maritime Executive Magazine

And as the author states at the end, let's wait for the investigation before we declare ourselves "really sure", and openminded (within reason, relating to what isn't--yet--certain) til then?
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  #605  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

The lesson to be learned from Bounty is most likely to be this and I believe there is a preponderance of actual evidence to suggest its odds are very high.

Being a nice, passionate and knowledgeable Captain accrues no benefit against continually taking on serious risks and having survived them in the past. We should all keep in mind, just because we've successfully lived through a past mistake, we shouldn't keep making it.

And, yes, the Rule 62 Captain is also presumably at fault. Understanding how or why they made a decision, doesn't change that. Although, we hope to learn from it. The best connection to that tragedy is how long it has been with no answers from authorities. The authorities are not invested in helping us learn anything, that's an optional side affect. They are only invested in whether their rules were broken and whether they may want to suggest new ones. Very different perspectives.
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  #606  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
.. He was the captain...he had many years experience...just because he didnt have or didnt apply for a Commercial captains liscence didnt mean that his responsibility to his crew and others was any different. I agree you would think that the BOounty Captain would have an icreased awareness due to his formal liscening and training.

....

One lesson we may learn from this is that even though we have formal liscensing in place for commercial vessals, that does not mean that a mistake in judgement ... is even less likely to occur. The formal training and experience should minimize the possibilities of this mistakes, buut as we have seen humans are fallible and make mistakes even if they have best of intentions.

....
Dave
Dave,it seems to me that there are a contradiction in what you say :

You say "One lesson we may learn from this is that even though we have formal liscensing in place for commercial vessals, that does not mean .... a mistake in judgement ... is ... less likely to occur".


and then you say:


"The formal training and experience should minimize the possibilities of this mistakes..."


Unless you think that formal training, the one that separates a licensed Captain able to operate commercial ships from an amateur captain (of his own boat) without any licence, will not contribute to a better and more informed judgement and therefore a lesser probability of mistakes, what you say is contradictory.

In fact you say:

" I agree you would think that the BOounty Captain would have an icreased awareness due to his formal liscening and training. "

and yes, in fact I think like that but the question here is : and you think also like that?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-13-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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  #607  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
The lesson to be learned from Bounty is most likely to be this and I believe there is a preponderance of actual evidence to suggest its odds are very high.

Being a nice, passionate and knowledgeable Captain accrues no benefit against continually taking on serious risks and having survived them in the past. We should all keep in mind, just because we've successfully lived through a past mistake, we shouldn't keep making it.

And, yes, the Rule 62 Captain is also presumably at fault. Understanding how or why they made a decision, doesn't change that. Although, we hope to learn from it. The best connection to that tragedy is how long it has been with no answers from authorities. The authorities are not invested in helping us learn anything, that's an optional side affect. They are only invested in whether their rules were broken and whether they may want to suggest new ones. Very different perspectives.
Disagree with your last three sentences. I've been on such a Board and we were indeed interested in educating the maritime public. That's why the reports typically posit proximate cause, contributing causes, findings of fact, and recommendations for the future. Why don't we wait and see on this Board too.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
Disagree with your last three sentences. I've been on such a Board and we were indeed interested in educating the maritime public. That's why the reports typically posit proximate cause, contributing causes, findings of fact, and recommendations for the future. Why don't we wait and see on this Board too.
I didn't say the authorities weren't interested and acknowledged the side affect.

However, is educating the public a mandatory outcome of the investigation?
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  #609  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
Trying to stick to the message rather than who the messenger is, here's yet another opinion, from an industry newsletter, for what it's worth.

OP-ED: Loss of HMS Bounty: The Sea Wins Again | Maritime News | Maritime Executive Magazine

And as the author states at the end, let's wait for the investigation before we declare ourselves "really sure", and openminded (within reason, relating to what isn't--yet--certain) til then?

Yes but he rises some questions and I wonder why these:


"What is the condition of my vessel and its equipment .. Is there that piece of equipment notorious for failing you at the worst time? Are the hull, deck, and hatches tight? Are the seams weeping? Are the engines and generators on a “wing and a prayer”? Where is that weakness, and every vessel has at least one, that the ocean will find its way into, claiming your ship? One must presume the longtime Master of the Bounty knew his vessel"


It is not normal for a Captain having a boat with seams weeping or with engine and generators on a wing and a prayer and if some equipment is notorious to fail, it should have been replaced or substituted.

So why he says specifically this? I guess that like us he had heard people saying that it was the case. Of course the ones that had said that could be wrong and therefore a proper investigation is needed but it just raises the odds that in fact the boat was not in the better condition, not to say in deficient conditions.

and here:


"Today we have satellites. There’s little excuse to take the risk of sailing into bad weather. Good or bad, assume the weather will get worse. It will. It always does. For Bounty, add a hurricane along the way. If you think you can outrun it or avoid it you are betting your ship, your crew’s and your own life on it. Did the Bounty make that bet?"


He is practically answering it's own question.


So yes, an investigation is needed to complete all the picture but fact is that we already know somethings, have strong evidence about others and with the things we know it is safe to assume that Bounty's Captains should have not sailed to face an hurricane in an old wooden ship.

There is a difference between an error and a mistake. This one is no mistake, it is a gross error that costed lives and an investigation is not needed to determine that. It is self-evident with what we know now. An investigation is needed to get all the picture that allowed this to happen and to recommend measures to never happen again or at least diminish the odds.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-13-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
You say "One lesson we may learn from this is that even though we have formal liscensing in place for commercial vessals, that does not mean .... a mistake in judgement ... is ... less likely to occur".


and then you say:


"The formal training and experience should minimize the possibilities of this mistakes..."


Unless you think that formal training, the one that separates a licensed Captain able to operate commercial ships from an amateur captain (of his own boat) without any licence, will not contribute to a better and more informed judgement and therefore a lesser probability of mistakes, what you say is contradictory.

In fact you say:

" I agree you would think that the BOounty Captain would have an icreased awareness due to his formal liscening and training. "

and yes, in fact I think like that but the question here is : and you think also like that?

Regards

Paulo
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OK no confusion in me. Lets put the words together

Quote:
"The formal training and experience should minimize the possibilities of this mistakes..."
and then we MAY learn

Quote:
"One lesson we may learn from this is that even though we have formal liscensing in place for commercial vessals, that does not mean .... a mistake in judgement ... is ... less likely to occur".

What it means maybe our assumption is wrong that formal liscecing does not mean less mistakes in judgement....*( maybe what we are requiring in the formal lisceincing has no bearing on judgement decisions).

For instance one part of the liscencing requirement is the number of hours required. As Minnie has said ( and I agree), if that prior experience has risking the vessel and surviving in two other hurricanes led him to feel no vulnerability and risk it again because he had success before. In this case his experience would work against him, leading to a fasle sense in scurity mistake in judgement . There fore even though you would think the formal liscence would be better, in this case it would not be.
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