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  #621  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Do you really think what you have said about this or are you just kidding?

Regards

Paulo
That's fine that you may think I am kidding. It is a weird concept. No I am not joking. One of the most difficult things to asses is how a person will perform under real life and death situations.

Because the military are confronted with it, with their leaders, the military have studied it and use methods to asses it that don't get done in other industries.

The only way you can determine if an officer will run or fight is to shoot at him. You can't do that in a class room situation. Nor can you with a ships captains course, or an amature skippers course.

The Army understands that the emotion fear is very important in a battle. It's not something that can be easily controlled. Isn't it weird that the place of " heros" understand about fear and teach it? Not so weird when you think about it.

The Army go to great lengths to asses how new officers will go under battle conditions... Sleep depravation on maneuvers, confronting the fear of death by parachuting, the Russians send officers off to some convenient "training" war.

But what do we do? Neither amature nor professional can or are assessed till they are already in command and at sea. Being second in command isn't the same.

So any amount of study, or qualifications, will not show what assessed time in command in extreme situations shows.

In this case, the Bounty, the interview showed a certain bravado: "we chase hurricanes"..... How does one know if its just bravado and when the first "real" one comes along all that bravado falls and deficiencies are shown.

I am not suggesting that is reality in this case. All I am pointing out is that training and qualifications do not show how a person will react in the moments or hours they have a mortal fear of their own death.
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  #622  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

One must have 360 logged day's at sea to qualify for the OUPV ( six pack) test. Not an easy test what with the rules of the road and the plotting. A week long prep course helps with the coast guard exam but isn't necassary if you can pass. Next after more sea time opperating as captain of uninspected vessel's, you may test for the master ticket, depending on the tonnage of the vessel you'll get a 50 or 100 ton liscence of inspected vessels, the exam is mostly plotting, a prep course helps. Then you get the smallest of the commercial liscence, the 200 ton master/ mate. You must run as 200 ton mate for about a year, training under a captain in real life situations before the 200 ton master is issued, tough test. This test is 1/2 stability, and 1/2 plotting. They don't hand these things out as easy as you might think, the six pack and 100 ton are easier, but getting the time on tonage vessels for the 200 takes a lot of time and training, add the master of tow TOAR, to the lisence and your talking years of training and school, plus the endorsement's that you need like STCW, RADAR CERT, radio opperator, rfpnw, etc. It's months of prep-classes to prepare for the test, coupled with years of on the job training before you are elegable. I've worked long and hard to get to 200 ton and it only get's more difficult from here. I don't know what tonnage the Bounty Captain had, but he made a bad and complacent decsision none the less.
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  #623  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
That's fine that you may think I am kidding. It is a weird concept. No I am not joking. One of the most difficult things to asses is how a person will perform under real life and death situations.

....
I am not suggesting that is reality in this case. All I am pointing out is that training and qualifications do not show how a person will react in the moments or hours they have a mortal fear of their own death.
I do not disagree, but a Captain job is to stay out of danger. We are not talking about the navy but about a civilian officer. As Coast Guard spokesman Lieutenant Michael Patterson says: "Professional mariners know how to take avoidance measures" not necessarily amateur ones, I will add.

Regards

Paulo
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  #624  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Come on what are you saying? That a highly qualified Captain is no more competent than an amateur sailor in what regards taking decisions in what regards the safety of a ship? I am not talking about miraculous exceptions, I am talking about reality.

Our civilization and culture has as base qualifications and specializations for everything that we do that requires knowledge.

Do you have as much confidence on the advise of a guy that has an interest in medicine than on the one that is of formal trained doctor?

Do you think that we should not qualify formally professionals because "Licenses and training and red tape often have little correlation with actual competence"?

Would you fell safe in knowing that the guy that is flying the commercial airplane where you are flying in is just an amateur with some experience?

Or that the stability calculations for the house where you live in (on a 20 store building) where not done by a professional engineer but by an amateur that has some experience?

Come on

Regards

Paulo
No one is saying that there shouldn't be training for different professions. It is just that the training does not at all guarantee that a person is competent. You can see it in every profession: engineering, teaching, emergency services, legal, etc. Some people are just not cut out to do certain jobs but they put the time in to get that "certificate." It fools other people into thinking they actually can do a certain job.

In some cases, such as teaching, ridiculous amounts of red tape, designed to support a HUGE bureaucracy keeps very competent people from entering the profession.
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  #625  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

There are a sh!t laod of dip sh!t's running boats out there. All the way up to unlimited tonnage dudes. It's amazing they can go through all the motions and come out incompitant on the other side. But they do.... in all professions, look at that Costa a$$ hole. It's usually the Acadamy Brat's that prove useless and the Hause pipe guy's that you can count on.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-13-2012 at 09:10 PM.
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  #626  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
There are sh!t laod of dip sh!t's running boats out there. All the way up to unlimited tonnage dudes. It's amazing they can go through all the motions and come out incompitant on the other side. But they do.... in all professions, look at that Costa a$$ hole. It's usually the Acadamy Brat's that prove useless and the Hause pipe guy's that you can count on.
Stop sugar coating it - tell us what you really think.
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  #627  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Sorry, but seems to me if one is determined to avoid ANY speculation about this incident whatsoever, seems the only way to do that is to refrain from discussing it at all...

Much of what you presumably would consider 'speculation' has been, in fact, based upon reported 'facts' that have subsequently been proven to be erroneous... I was chided earlier in this thread for "rushing to judgement", for example, by another poster who had initially passed on the information that the BOUNTY was on passage from Nova Scotia, and had attempted to sail east of the storm...

I've tried to refrain from pure speculation here, but some of the information that has come to light as "fact" positively reeks of incredulity... Waldbridge's claim of "having sailed the B0UNTY in 70-foot seas", for example... If by that he means a significant wave height of 70', do you all comprehend how extraordinarily rare in reality such conditions are?



Seriously??? I know a retired ship captain from Oz, sailed the Bass Strait for 18 years... He has NEVER seen conditions remotely close to what could legitimately be described as "70-foot seas"... So, yeah, I feel pretty comfortable 'speculating' that Waldbridge is full of sh_t with that particular claim - much less, that standing on deck in such conditions was not much different from standing on her deck at dockside... I don't think one has to be a "credentialed expert" to realize such posturing is pure BS...

If anything, seems to me that most of the 'speculation' engaged in during the course of this thread has come from those who appear to be loosely "in defense of" of the captain. I have seen nothing to support the notion advanced that the BOUNTY might have been ordered to leave New London, for example - and yet, some hear have tossed that out as a potential mitigating factor... Aside from appearing purely speculative, it's a moot point, in any event. Even if the BOUNTY had been ordered to depart, Waldbridge still had many options to consider. He might have tried to get inside the hurricane barrier at New Bedford, or run up Narragannsett Bay... Or, put into a place like Pt Jefferson on the north shore of LI... Or, up the Hudson, or Delaware, or into Norfolk/Hampton Roads, or up the York or James Rivers... Any of which, he had time to do... No freakin' way would he have not only been ordered to leave New London, but to attempt to shoot the gap between Sandy and Hatteras, as well...

Finally, I see plenty of pretty informed opinion and knowledge being passed here, no shortage of posters here and elsewhere who have a pretty fair idea what they're talking about. I think it's a bit unfair to dismiss some out of hand simply because they might technically be coming from "amateurs", instead of credentialed professionals... Frankly, one of the stupidest opinions I've seen offered anywhere regarding this tragedy came from an ostensible ship captain in defense of Waldbridge in one of the earlier articles cited - something to the effect of "he actually had A VERY GOOD PLAN, he just didn't count on the complete loss/failure of his pumps and generators..."

I don't care what that guy's credentials are, IMHO such is the opinion of a fool, and certainly not any captain I'd ever care to go to sea with...

btw, it's also been reported as fact that the BOUNTY had sailed "through" at least 2 hurricanes previously... Has anyone found cites or confirmations that would be more specific?

Again, perhaps it's just me... But it seems as if those who believe that some mitigating factors might eventually emerge, that will justify or make the captain's decisions and actions appear reasonable, prudent, or seamanlike, are the ones who are REALLY engaging in "speculation", here... (grin) Seems rather unlikely, when it appears no one here so far can even IMAGINE a scenario in which this voyage made any real sense...


I believe his quote was the following: " If it was not for the fact that he was dead, he had a good plan ". A rather unique way of putting it, but you would have to know the source.

I have sailed ( one time ) with the captain you referenced and we both quoted. He is a character, but he is also not reckless. He would never endanger his ship or crew. I would think that in many professions there are those that will stick their necks out for one of their own and those that will not.

Last edited by YukonJack; 11-13-2012 at 11:53 PM.
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  #628  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
No one is saying that there shouldn't be training for different professions. It is just that the training does not at all guarantee that a person is competent. You can see it in every profession: engineering, teaching, emergency services, legal, etc. Some people are just not cut out to do certain jobs but they put the time in to get that "certificate." It fools other people into thinking they actually can do a certain job.

In some cases, such as teaching, ridiculous amounts of red tape, designed to support a HUGE bureaucracy keeps very competent people from entering the profession.
That is not the point. The point is that a highly qualified professional for a job is normally much more capable at that job then an unqualified one, in what regards sailing captains or in other any activity. If it was not like that governments would not invest huge amounts of money in qualification and education of professionals for all kinds of jobs.

It is so obvious to me that I cannot see what you guys are trying to say. Of course there are incompetents in all qualified professions but certainly much more incompetents on unqualified ones. That's one of the reasons why they did not manage to qualify themselves to do anything except basic stuff that anybody can do without a need to learn a lot. That is also the reason qualified professions are better paid.

Regards

Paulo
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  #629  
Old 11-13-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent.

In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Licenses and training and red tape often have little correlation with actual competence...
It is absurd to suggest that licenses and training have little correlation with competence. It is simply not true. The correlation is not 100% perfect, but it is a very strong correlation.
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  #630  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent.

In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence.

It is absurd to suggest that licenses and training have little correlation with competence. It is simply not true. The correlation is not 100% perfect, but it is a very strong correlation.
Apparently you did not read/see the word "often" in my statement and yes, this occurs frequently, often, more than occasionally and quite frequently in some professions.

What typically happens is that people come out of educational institutions with book knowledge and perhaps some canned practical experience of varying effectiveness. The real education happens on the job. This real education OFTEN has little to do with much of what was required to get the entry certification. It's too bad we've largely given up on apprentice learning and now leave teaching to academics who often have NO actual experience or worse, have left the field they teach because they are not very good at it.

This is way off-topic. Sorry I led it astray. May you never encounter the "six pack" captain who forgot many years ago that you have the right of way. We'll just disagree.
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