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  #631  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Sal Paradise,

This is a rude remark, uncalled for and does not belong on the posting. It shows and inability to control your anger and discuss topics in a rational grownup way. In addition it does not add to the topic or help fellow sailors in general and is clearly a personal attack oriented comment. If you wish to be taken seriously future posting should not be personal in nature. Finally posts of a personal attack nature are against ther terms of service of this site.

Because you a relatively new with 60 posts you should understand that many us on on this site have learned to play fair with each other and can disagree strongly with each other from time to time or even freaquently and do it in a civil respectfully nature. Even with Paulo, whom I have had strong difference of opinion on this particular thread, I value his contributions to SN in many other threads and agree with him most of the time. Do not get caught up in your emotions here as it only the internet, but at the same time do not use that it is the internet to make personal characterizions of people. If that is YOUR agenda...try the off-topic threads where less emphasis is placed on political correctness.

You may not like I have to say... and you can disagree in an adult civil manner like all others...but what you cannot do is what you have done above. In the future keep your posts on the subject not on the subjects or your posts will be reported.

Respectfully,

Dave
Dave,

You might consider heeding your own advice. As I read it you've done exactly the same here on SN, and quite recently to boot.


Like this in the Rule 62 thread where Leocat66 simply suggested that the skipper of Rule 62 explain himself publicly. You lit into him like a pit bull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Leocat66 he has no obligation to you, me or other sailors in this matter. I do not want to hear your ameteur criticisms or Monday morning quarterbacking of what happened.

This thread has had many knowlegeable contributors which has helped myself and others in thinking of what to do to prevent this situation/ scenario and how to handle it if we got into a similar fix. You are not one of them and your rant would serve as no learning experience to myself.

Dave
You called the guy an "ameteur" with regard to his posting yet what "facts" do really you about him to make that factually worded statement? What if he is a professional captain? Jumping to conclusions & speculation perhaps? You also told him others were knowledgeable and that he was not knowledgeable? Do you know that for a fact or is this speculation?

Just looking at this you suggest we should...


In this post it seems you let you let "your inability to control your anger and discuss topics in a rational grownup way" take over just as you suggested the poster above not do..

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Didnt take long for the judgement police of SN to voice their opinions. Whos annointed you god to judge. Great commentary from an internet jockey sitting behind a computer. You have no right to use the word "we" amd you certainly dont speak for all sailors.

Personal....?


Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
That's incredible. No insurance and your what 16? So if someone gets hurt on your boat or because of your boat they will have to sue mommy and daddy. They could loose their house. If they don't have insurance. Your needed to have this boat against their wishes and were encourahed by some on here to do that dispite how they felt and your inability to have the money to pay for even the simplest of safety gear point to absolute immature decisions.

I have followed you exploits for a while. I have to call it as I see it sorry no matter how unpopular that makes what I say appear. From your first posts to yelling out a fisherman thinking you had the right away to this escapade. To this latest reckless situation where you are putting others in danger needlessly, again through immaturity and lack of finances show that you need to learn responsibility.

Those on here who have teen agers and have raised children would not like if your kids got on the Internet and were encouraged by others to go against your wishes as a parent.

Those who find this clever or romantic about someone folllowing their dream, why don't you moor beside this child and let his boat smack yours.

Dave
Are we judging others with speculation? Do we know for a fact that "mommy & daddy" could lose their house? Is this not a personal attack? Calling him a "child" & using terms like "mommy & daddy" are certainly derisive words to choose when talking to a teenager. This post smells of derogatory personal comments and again included comments about ones lack of maturity. Where I come from calling someone "immature" is considered a personal attack and derogatory.

Do we know for a fact that Smallboatlover is any more or less mature than say Robin Lee Graham who sailed around the world on a shoe string budget, with no insurance, and then wrote the book Dove..?. Do we have all the facts to make those statements?

Please don't take this as an attack on you I just see a little hypocrisy in all this, in a pot/kettle sort of way.. If we are to be above the fray, and preach that, then we should strive for that ourselves, no??
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 11-14-2012 at 10:27 AM.
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  #632  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

RC,

I resepct your advice and dont see it as an attack.

Understand in this particular thread I know I have acted over-agressively. I understand I have in this thread and feel justified due to the nature of the posts which were also directed at me of a personal nature as well as defending a friend ( the Captain). We all react differently and have different tipping points on different subjects.

In this thread, most of the posters IMHO were respectful and even when accusing the Captain of his obvious responsibility did it in a measured fair way. He deserved to be hammered for the actions he took. His aggregious error cost another their life and also his own. He paid the ultimate price for his actions. IMHO I also beleive there are other responsible parties, but that wont be apparent until the investigation ends. What he didnt deserve are out of context remarks, innuendos, and half truths.

Some went about it like rabid dogs throwing out innuendos, half truths, unsupported musings and purposly disparaging a dead mans reputation without thought. It was these which I "fought fire with fire" so to speak. Thats the only language they understand. They dont get "political correctness".

Just the way it is my friend. I will always defend my friends. I dont apoligize for that loyalty. My friends deserve that. So now all know Robin Walbridge was more than some news story or internet figure to me.

I will remain my normal loving self (sic) on other threads ( sans off topic)

As a side...I really dont get "angry" about stuff on the internet.
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  #633  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote:

Well, since there remains a great deal of factual information that apparently will forever be unknown to us regarding the RULE 62 tragedy, and we are still awaiting the final determination of an "official investigation" which appears likely never to occur...

Wouldn't any attempt to answer your question involve, by your definition, little more than "speculation" on our part? (grin)JOnEisberg
In the case of Rule 62 we have a few similar notes to this incident
The Captain made a poor decision and brought his vessel into an area where a "rage" was occuring and it contributed to the sinking of the boat.

Are you willing to state that the Captain of the Rulke 62 and his actions led to their deaths. He in charge made a decision which ultimately cost the life of people, therefore he was ultimately responsible, correct?

In the case of the Farlones...the CG found they "cut to close" Are you willing to state the Captain caused the death of the others on the boat?

Not meant to be argumentative...just want to see the thinking with these incidents also.

Dave
Of course both skippers shoulder the ultimate responsibility, of that there is no question... However, I believe there are significant differences in their respective "degrees" of responsibility, the 2 incidents seem to me not to be so easily compared...

The Farallones incident by definition entailed a bit more risk, by virtue of the fact that they were racing. Everyone aboard that boat likely understood the challenging and risky nature of racing around that rock - that's a large part of the appeal, thrill, and satisfaction of doing so, of course. What was going on aboard that boat involved much more of a 'team effort' than would have been the case aboard RULE 62. The helmsman would have been taking some guidance from the navigator as to the course sailed, and some of the crew would have been riding the rail, looking to seaward. At no point in Bryan Chong's detailed account of the wreck, was any mention made of any concern from any of the crew that they might be cutting the islands dangerously close. Other boats had sailed a similar track, and IMHO had they been in that particular spot either a minute earlier, or a minute later, their rounding of the Farallones may have been uneventful... Elements of risk, mistaken judgement, and sheer bad luck all conspired in that particular tragedy, and in my view the mistake made by the person in command were nowhere nearly as egregious, or clearly defined, as the decisions made aboard RULE 62, or in the case of the BOUNTY...

FWIW, the primary lessons to be learned from the RULE 62 tragedy are the dangers of making a bluewater passage with an untested crew, the over-reliance and overconfidence in electronic navigation, and the failure to master or even attempt the practice of heaving-to...

And, perhaps most importantly, the failure to have large scale PAPER charts aboard... I'd be willing to bet almost anything that skipper did not have the ability to spread out a large chart of the Abacos/NE Providence Channel on a table before him, otherwise a number of perfectly safe options would have become apparent to him at a glance... However, that is pure 'speculation' on my part, of course... (grin)

Amazing to me, that one of the required items of the Caribbean 1500's Safety Inspection is not a compliment of paper charts for the Bahamas and Greater Amtilles, as potential bailout points from the rally... Perhaps that's changed now, but last time I heard, such was not the case...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-14-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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  #634  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
Licenses and training and red tape often have little correlation with actual competence...

...Apparently you did not read/see the word "often" in my statement and yes, this occurs frequently, often, more than occasionally and quite frequently in some professions...
Oh, another one of these "you must have missed that one word" insults.

NO, I DID NOT miss the word "often." But I suggest that maybe you don't realize the importance of the word "correlation," which you appear to have used sloppily in your statement.

I do not deny that there are people who have certifications but lack the common sense and experience to be fully competent. But I claim that they are, by and large, statistical outliers. As I said, no correlation is 100% perfect - there will always be outliers. But those outliers do not destroy the correlation.

You said that certification and competence "often have little correlation." I insist that they are almost always correlated, but agree that there are outliers to that correlation.
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Last edited by TakeFive; 11-14-2012 at 03:59 PM.
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  #635  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent.

In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence.

It is absurd to suggest that licenses and training have little correlation with competence. It is simply not true. The correlation is not 100% perfect, but it is a very strong correlation.
Well at least on this point we fully agree

Regards

Paulo
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  #636  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post

And, perhaps most importantly, the failure to have large scale PAPER charts aboard... ?....skipper did not have the ability to spread out a large chart of the Abacos/NE Providence Channel on a table before him, otherwise a number of perfectly safe options would have become apparent to him at a glance..

Amazing to me, that one of the required items of the Caribbean 1500's Safety Inspection is not a compliment of paper charts .
Paper chart arguments abound, but please, you need to understand that what is easy and intuitive to you may not be for a modern generation.

I'm not denigrating your ability and/or preference to paper.

I have been using a computer for such a long time, decades, that I really find it difficult to write with a pen.
The same is with charts.... You might find it easy to lay it out, for me it's uncomfortable, I miss what I am looking for, its inaccurate, slow, and my mind just doesn't work that way anymore.

So what is apparent to you at a glance on paper is apparent to me at a glance on computer.

You've seen kids be able to text a message on their smart phone while still talking. Ask that kid to write that message out with a pen and still carry on a conversation. They can't.

Ask me to plot a l&l on a paper chart and I can do it but it takes me ages, but I can do it faster than you on any of my 3 plotters. In fact I can plot a route around the world in the time it would take some people to get a l&l onto a plotter.

Computers are here and have been for so long that its stupid to require an architect to design a house without CAD, it's stupid to ask a mechanic to diagnose your sports car without downloading from inboard computers, it's stupid to ask NASA to issue astronauts with slide rules. For the new generation of sailors paper charts are archaic.

Paper just isn't tactile to someone who never uses paper. But a computer with a mouse full of wheels and buttons is.





Mark
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-14-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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  #637  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Paper chart arguments abound, but please, you need to understand that what is easy and intuitive to you may not be for a modern generation.

I'm not denigrating your ability and/or preference to paper.

I have been using a computer for such a long time, decades, that I really find it difficult to write with a pen.
The same is with charts.... You might find it easy to lay it out, for me it's uncomfortable, I miss what I am looking for, its inaccurate, slow, and my mind just doesn't work that way anymore.

So what is apparent to you at a glance on paper is apparent to me at a glance on computer.

....

Mark
Mark, I passed from paper charts to plotter ten years ago and generally I agree with you but Jon is right about one thing: A plotter or a computer have a small image and you cannot get a global good reading because the global image would be too small. A chart is big and you would only have the same legibility if you had a screen with that size and you don't.

So, for what he is saying, for looking to another options that are at some distance a paper chart offers big advantages and I use them for that and also to prepare the voyage and go tho the plotter to details and to actually do what was planned on a paper chart (if the distances are not really small).

There is another point that can be very dangerous with the plotter: You are used to get very reliable information on the plotter regarding the boat position in relation to the chart. That is like that most of the time but sometimes it is not so and if you are used to have a blind confidence on the electronics you can be done. It happened to me on the last years at least 2 times, on the med where the cartographic information is very reliable. I imagine that in more remote zone the errors can be much more frequent.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
have a blind confidence on the electronics

Paulo
Or a blind confidence in paper.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

You should know how to use both and rely on neither. During passage we always have our paper charts spread out on the Nav Station, and plot out position every 1/2 hour. After all the elctrontics can fail. I understand the ease the plotter is now a days to most ( I have a c90w) and also an I Pad. I also have ease using the charts as thats how I learned. My wife it has been easier to teacher her the chart by using the IPAD or plotter first.

As far as Rule 62, I never heard on of the causes was not that he didnt have charts laid out on the table.

Jon,
He CHOSE to come in to shallow water where he did and he didnt have to. He could have stayed put in deep water. Hove to and gone nowhere.. an taken his lumps like everyone else did.

IMHO He like the Captain of the Bounty placed his ship in jeopardy when he had a safer choice.

One of my lessons for me from this is that the Captain has the responsibility to do the safest thing and that sometimes the prerssures and pleadings of the crew concerning their comfort level must be ignored to maintain that safety. They were never in immediate danger until he placed them there by his actions.
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  #640  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Certifications and regulations are designed as barrier to entry and protect those already there from competition. Not to mention that there is a lot of money in running certification programs.

Competence is derived from experience and can easily be verified by references.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That is not the point. The point is that a highly qualified professional for a job is normally much more capable at that job then an unqualified one, in what regards sailing captains or in other any activity. If it was not like that governments would not invest huge amounts of money in qualification and education of professionals for all kinds of jobs.

It is so obvious to me that I cannot see what you guys are trying to say. Of course there are incompetents in all qualified professions but certainly much more incompetents on unqualified ones. That's one of the reasons why they did not manage to qualify themselves to do anything except basic stuff that anybody can do without a need to learn a lot. That is also the reason qualified professions are better paid.

Regards

Paulo
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