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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #641  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post

For the new generation of sailors paper charts are archaic.
Would that include those times when the electrons might cease flowing aboard a small boat at sea, or into her chartplotters and/or computers?

Nah, that could NEVER happen, right? (grin)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post

So what is apparent to you at a glance on paper is apparent to me at a glance on computer.
I've debated this issue at length elsewhere, no need to repeat it here... I'm simply not entirely comfortable going anyhere without a paper backup, but that's probably just me... Many people nowadays obviously feel quite comfortable doing so...

My point was, however, more precisely this: In trying to imagine the circumstances the skipper of RULE 62 found himself off Lynyard Cay that evening, the likelihood of an overwhelming desire on the part of everyone aboard that boat to "get us off this damn thing, NOW...", a more 'leisurely' perusal of his options would not have been as readily available via electronic means, as it would had a larger format paper chart been spread out before him...

To obtain a similar degree of information that could have been gleaned from an appropriate chart 'at a glance' generally involves considerably more 'work' - in the form of zooming, panning, atc - when using electronic means... I don't think I'm alone in sensing 'The Big Picture' might not be as readily available when relying on electronic means, it certainly isn't to me...

One thing that captain needed to do that night, was more fully 'explore' his options... I'm sorry, but for him to have fully done so, to have assessed the merits of running around behind a spot like Hole in the Wall, or up to Sandy Point, or down to Royal Island or the safe haven of Spanish Wells using a plotter or computer alone, could simply not have been easily done 'at a glance', the necessary information simply isn't available in a single screen shot, as it is on paper... At least, certainly not on my C-Map card of that regiion, when viewed on my 10" Simrad display...

And, it doubt that's just my tired "older generation" eyes talking, there... (grin)

One thing I've noticed since the advent of electronic navigation... In places conducive to gunkholing - the Bahamas and Maine, for example - it seems nowadays less likely to encounter boats in the sort of 'unexpected' places that might intrigue one during a previous evening's perusal of a large paper chart... There seems to be very little of the "hey, THAT looks like a cool spot, why don't we check that out..." going on anymore... Rather, choices now seem to be made simply more in accordance with the recommendations of cruising guides, and all the waypoints and routes provided to take you there...

And that, I believe, is partially a result of the limitations or difficulty of 'browsing' a topography as intricate as the coast of Maine on a 13" computer screen, as opposed to a traditional chart several feet square... Used to be a big part of the routine of cruising, spread out the chart on the table after dinner had been cleared, pour another glass, and browse the possibilities for the following day... Now, that's morphed into firing up the Honda 2000 on deck, and shooting a CD from the latest season of MAD MEN into the player... (grin)

Like reading a book on Kindle as opposed to the physical object in your lap, or shooting images digitally as opposed to on film - there's nothing wrong with either means, of course.... But, that doesn't mean that they're the same...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-14-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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  #642  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

As far as Rule 62, I never heard on of the causes was not that he didnt have charts laid out on the table.
I thought I'd made it clear, that's nothing but pure speculation on my part...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Jon,
He CHOSE to come in to shallow water where he did and he didnt have to. He could have stayed put in deep water. Hove to and gone nowhere.. an taken his lumps like everyone else did.

IMHO He like the Captain of the Bounty placed his ship in jeopardy when he had a safer choice.

.
Not sure why you're directing that at me, I believe I've been as vociferous as anyone around here, right from the start, in being critical in the decisions made aboard RULE 62 that led to that tragedy, or in pointing out the numerous superior options he had...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Jon...not aimed at you other than you just posted concerning it.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post

To obtain a similar degree of information that could have been gleaned from an appropriate chart 'at a glance' generally involves considerably more 'work' - in the form of zooming, panning, atc - when using electronic means...
Just like you don't have to tell your head or eyes to move to see something I do not have to tell my hand on a mouse to pan or zoom. It just does it like your head and eyes do.

That's what I am talking about.

When one is so good at a skill it becomes automatic. My skill is in computers, not paper.

You will find more like that with the texting generation. How do they text so fast? How can they be so accurate? How can the communicate so succinctly with a IQ so low?

Like driving a manual car, changing gears isn't though of, it's just done.

the future is technology that's intuitive, fast and accurate.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

If electronic charts are good enough to pilot a plane, maybe they are good enough to pilot a boat:
Airlines, FAA Chart New Course With iPads | Autopia | Wired.com
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Or a blind confidence in paper.
I guess you miss what I have said. I was talking about the position of the boat on the chart that appears on the plotter and that can be wrong. On a paper chart is you that have to put your boat where it is regarding the chart and you have also your eyes to do that, I mean regarding reality. If you miss that it is you that are missing not an electronic device.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Lets get back to the OP.

More details come out of the woodwork:

CBS19 Exclusive: Nelson County Man Recounts Rescue from HMS Bounty Ship

Strange, date on article says 2011 not 2012?
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  #648  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Just like you don't have to tell your head or eyes to move to see something I do not have to tell my hand on a mouse to pan or zoom. It just does it like your head and eyes do.

That's what I am talking about.

When one is so good at a skill it becomes automatic. My skill is in computers, not paper.
Well, I'm guessing maybe, just maybe, the captain of RULE 62 might not be quite as facile with a computer mouse or chartplotter cursor as you are...

Otherwise, he might have noticed the myriad of other options that would have been plain to see, on a chart of the Northeast Providence Channel & Approaches spread out before him...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
the future is technology that's intuitive, fast and accurate.
Not to mention, immune to something like, say, a lightning strike... (grin)

We'll just have to agree to disagree, is all... Look, I'm a big fan of electronic charting, I use it all the time... There is no better means of taking you from Point A to Point B, when you're certain Point B is definitely where you want to go... I'm simply arguing that it has certain limitations, is all... And, I imagine what happened with RULE 62 fits the scenario perfectly of what might have happened due to not having a large scale paper backup aboard...

Just my own gut instinct, nothing more... I could be wrong, of course - too bad we'll likely never know...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-14-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska
Southwest was clearly the one he was going for, based on the satellite tracking of the ship's position. I do believe that would be to get the wind behind him on that trip.

Which he actually said seems unclear.
I was thinking about that interview with the Capt before departure. In the interview the Capt made a circle with his thumbs and forefinger stating he wanted to take the ship into the position of his right thumb (SE part of Sandy), article said no crew questioned him. Interesting he was telling the crew he was going to take the ship into head winds and seas (while trying to go south) and no one said "hey Capt, don't you mean your left thumb" (SW part of sandy), where apparently he actually went with stern winds and waves not off the bow.

Seems no one questioned the Capt.- ever.
It's a mistake to consider that interview to be "prior to departure", or having anything to do with "chasing" Sandy. It was conducted back in August, after all...

Nevertheless, his comments about the "SE quadrant" make no sense to me, in a general discussion of hurricanes... In many storms which took pronounced easterly tracks at some point - such as Lenny, or Wilma - the SE quadrant would have been one of the worst places to be... "Chasing" the SE side of a storm in order to "get a good ride" might make some conceivable/theoretical sense if sailing generally northbound, but when dealing with a storm like Sandy on a voyage south, makes no sense whatsoever...

I'm more and more inclined to believe now that the stories of the BOUNTY having previously sailed "through" 2 other hurricanes are BS, as well... In reference to the 70' seas, he mentions that once they had a hurricane "several hundred miles distant", that was sending them a very "gentle" 70' swell...

That would be utter nonsense, of course...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I thought this was interesting:

"As 'Superstorm' Sandy brewed in the Atlantic Ocean, the ship's captain, Robin Walbridge, called the crew to the deck for a meeting.

"At that point in time, I didn't know a hurricane was coming," said Barksdale. Captain Walbridge told the crew he wouldn't blame them if they wanted to get off the ship and he wouldn't hold it against them.

"Naturally, I thought about it," Barksdale said. "But the captain had a good plan to circumvent the storm and at that point, we didn't realize the magnitude of the storm."

Citing the old saying a ship is safer at sea than at port, none of the other 15 crew members opted out either. The Bounty set sail on Thursday. Three days later, the ship sailed directly into Hurricane Sandy's path.

"I knew we were in trouble early afternoon on Sunday," Barksdale recalls. "It appeared we were taking in more water than we were pumping out."


Above from:
CBS19 Exclusive: Nelson County Man Recounts Rescue from HMS Bounty Ship
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