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  #651  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Jon,

IMHO I suggest you take the same stance as the to Rule 62 as to the Bounty to be consistant and not blame it on paper charts vs electrontics. It was completely the Captains decision and fault per like you have though about the Bounty.

Quote:
What I've simply tried to make clear from the outset, is my doubt that there will come to light any mitigating factors or evidence that will make his decision to depart New London when he did, and attempt to shoot the gap between Sandy and Hatteras, appear to be anything short of "unfathomable", or impossible to justify in terms of any reasonable Risk/Reward analysis...JonEisberg
Quote:
If anything, seems to me that most of the 'speculation' engaged in during the course of this thread has come from those who appear to be loosely "in defense of" of the captain. I have seen nothing to support the notion advanced that the BOUNTY might have been ordered to leave New London, for example - and yet, some hear have tossed that out as a potential mitigating factor... Aside from appearing purely speculative, it's a moot point, in any event. Even if the BOUNTY had been ordered to depart, Waldbridge still had many options to consider. ...JonEisberg
Quote:
Again, perhaps it's just me... But it seems as if those who believe that some mitigating factors might eventually emerge, that will justify or make the captain's decisions and actions appear reasonable, prudent, or seamanlike, are the ones who are REALLY engaging in "speculation", here... (grin) Seems rather unlikely, when it appears no one here so far can even IMAGINE a scenario in which this voyage made any real sense... ...JonEisberg
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  #652  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
It's a mistake to consider that interview to be "prior to departure", or having anything to do with "chasing" Sandy. It was conducted back in August, after all...

Nevertheless, his comments about the "SE quadrant" make no sense to me, in a general discussion of hurricanes... In many storms which took pronounced easterly tracks at some point - such as Lenny, or Wilma - the SE quadrant would have been one of the worst places to be... "Chasing" the SE side of a storm in order to "get a good ride" might make some conceivable/theoretical sense if sailing generally northbound, but when dealing with a storm like Sandy on a voyage south, makes no sense whatsoever...

I'm more and more inclined to believe now that the stories of the BOUNTY having previously sailed "through" 2 other hurricanes are BS, as well... In reference to the 70' seas, he mentions that once they had a hurricane "several hundred miles distant", that was sending them a very "gentle" 70' swell...

That would be utter nonsense, of course...
According to Walbridge's wife, he has sailed in many huricanes, and she brings up the East side of the cane again? Look here:
HMS Bounty captain 'wasn't gambling' with lives, wife says | Sympatico.ca News

"In the interview, Walbridge said "you try and get up as close to the eye of it as you can, and you stay down in the southeast quadrant, and when it stops, you stop. You don't want to get in front of it - you want to stay behind it. But you'll also get a good ride out of a hurricane."

McCann said Tuesday that during the public television interview her husband was "being a little?cute, I guess."

"But he would like hurricanes because they pushed him, they made him go fast. And he's been in many hurricanes. I mean, I can't even count the number of hurricanes he's been in."

McCann said her husband had been trying to navigate around the storm "and get on the east side of it, which is what he did do."

She said that in the weeks since the ship went down, she has learned of a series of "unfortunate circumstances" at sea, including overwhelmed pumps and generator problems.

The crew has been "extremely supportive and caring and loving" since the sinking, McCann said, adding that the first mate spoke to her about her husband's dedication to safety.

McCann said she will remember her husband as a "humble, gentle soul" who touched people's lives around the world."
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  #653  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
It's a mistake to consider that interview to be "prior to departure", or having anything to do with "chasing" Sandy. It was conducted back in August, after all...

Nevertheless, his comments about the "SE quadrant" make no sense to me, in a general discussion of hurricanes... In many storms which took pronounced easterly tracks at some point - such as Lenny, or Wilma - the SE quadrant would have been one of the worst places to be... "Chasing" the SE side of a storm in order to "get a good ride" might make some conceivable/theoretical sense if sailing generally northbound, but when dealing with a storm like Sandy on a voyage south, makes no sense whatsoever...

I'm more and more inclined to believe now that the stories of the BOUNTY having previously sailed "through" 2 other hurricanes are BS, as well... In reference to the 70' seas, he mentions that once they had a hurricane "several hundred miles distant", that was sending them a very "gentle" 70' swell...

That would be utter nonsense, of course...
Jon,
You are mistaken.

Chef, if you like "facts", you should remove the "like" on post #664.

Here is the interview, happened Oct 25, 2012 just prior to his departure into the cane:

Debate rages about Bounty captain's decision to set sail | The Chronicle Herald

"Capt. Robin Walbridge stood on the deck of the 180-foot wooden sailing ship Bounty on the sunny afternoon of Oct. 25. The wind was so mild that the ship had motored back to harbor after a short sail. The Bounty was tied to a city pier in New London, Conn.

Walbridge told a small group that the Bounty would be leaving for St. Petersburg, Fla., that night instead of the next morning. He wanted to get a jump on a massive weather system coming from the south that forecasters were calling “historic” and that one already had dubbed “Frankenstorm.”
The National Weather Service’s marine forecast for the area described the coming confluence of systems: “HIGH PRESSURE MOVES OFFSHORE ON FRIDAY AS A COLD FRONT APPROACHES FROM THE WEST. A COASTAL STORM ASSOCIATED WITH TROPICAL CYCLONE SANDY MAY IMPACT THE AREA LATE IN THE WEEKEND AND INTO EARLY NEXT WEEK.”

Walbridge formed a circle with his thumbs and index fingers, and told listeners to look at his right thumb. It represented the southeastern section of the hurricane.
“He said he wanted to get to the southeast quadrant and ride the storm out,” said New London Dockmaster Barbara Neff. No one raised objections."

Last edited by casey1999; 11-14-2012 at 05:26 PM.
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  #654  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Would that include those times when the electrons might cease flowing aboard a small boat at sea, or into her chartplotters and/or computers?

Nah, that could NEVER happen, right? (grin)



I've debated this issue at length elsewhere, no need to repeat it here... I'm simply not entirely comfortable going anyhere without a paper backup, but that's probably just me... Many people nowadays obviously feel quite comfortable doing so...
...
I don't think it is just you. On most European countries (the others I m not sure) you will receive a fine if inspected and will not have aboard paper charts of the region where you are sailing independently if you have or not electronic charts.

I guess this means that the ones that are responsible in Europe for security in what regards pleasure boating consider that paper charts are indispensable at least as a back up, probably because as you have pointed out, electronics can get out of order or you can have no energy to run them.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-14-2012 at 05:28 PM.
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  #655  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Jon,

IMHO I suggest you take the same stance as the to Rule 62 as to the Bounty to be consistant and not blame it on paper charts vs electrontics. It was completely the Captains decision and fault per like you have though about the Bounty.
JFC, what the hell do I have to do to convince you I am in complete AGREEMENT on that? (grin)

Please, go back and read my posts in the RULE 62 thread, if you have any doubts...

My only point is that I believe it is highly likely that his overconfidence in the accuracy of electronic position fixing and charting CONTRIBUTED to his decision to enter that cut...

I see this all the time now in the Bahamas... The Explorer Charts are now considered to be so accurate, that many cruisers now feel increasingly EMBOLDENED do things like piloting The Devil's Backbone in poor light, or traveling after dark... 20 years ago, if he'd been relying on the sketch charts in The Yachtsman's Guide to the Bahamas - where the piloting directions for that cut might have read something akin to "when the small casuarina on the north end of Lynyard cay forms a range with the red-roofed shack on...", there is no freakin' way he would have considered that passage at night, during a rage...

(But, hell - back in the days pre-GPS, he wouldn't have been doing the 1500 to begin with... For that matter, without GPS, would there even BE a Caribbean 1500 Cattle Drive today? (grin))

The skipper is absolutely, completely responsible for an egregiously poor decision of seamanship, for which he will have to bear the tragic consequences for the rest of his life...

I'm simply saying that such a decision was not made in a vacuum, and that perhaps something like having once seen his computer navigation software having placed his boat IN HIS PRECISE SLIP in his marina on Google Earth likely led him to believe such a cut was navigable in those conditions...

All he had to do was keep the little boat icon on the dotted line...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-14-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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  #656  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't think it is just you. On most European countries (the others I m not sure) you will receive a fine if inspected and will not have aboard paper charts of the region where you are sailing independently if you have or not electronic charts.
It's no different down here... and there have always been paper charts in use on the bridges of every commercial ship I've visited both here and in Asia.

It's also my understanding that most (all?) commercial shipping companies require their crews to mark their position on a paper chart every hour for legal reasons... and I'd be very surprised to hear a supposedly experienced seaman like Wallbridge wasn't doing the same thing on HMS Bounty.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm simply saying that such a decision was not made in a vacuum, and that perhaps something like having once seen his computer navigation software having placed his boat IN HIS PRECISE SLIP in his marina on Google Earth likely led him to believe such a cut was navigable in those conditions...

All he had to do was keep the little boat icon on the dotted line...
FWIW, one of Australia's mopst experienced yachtsmen lost his boat (Shockwave), his life and the life of a crewmate also on a small rocky outcrop on a dark night off Woolongong doing exactly the same thing.

So there you go. It's a trap.. and the best of us can fall into it, no matter where you are in the world. Be careful out there.
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  #658  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Jon,
You are mistaken.

Chef, if you like "facts", you should remove the "like" on post #664.

Here is the interview, happened Oct 25, 2012 just prior to his departure into the cane:

Debate rages about Bounty captain's decision to set sail | The Chronicle Herald

"Capt. Robin Walbridge stood on the deck of the 180-foot wooden sailing ship Bounty on the sunny afternoon of Oct. 25. The wind was so mild that the ship had motored back to harbor after a short sail. The Bounty was tied to a city pier in New London, Conn.

Walbridge told a small group that the Bounty would be leaving for St. Petersburg, Fla., that night instead of the next morning. He wanted to get a jump on a massive weather system coming from the south that forecasters were calling “historic” and that one already had dubbed “Frankenstorm.”
The National Weather Service’s marine forecast for the area described the coming confluence of systems: “HIGH PRESSURE MOVES OFFSHORE ON FRIDAY AS A COLD FRONT APPROACHES FROM THE WEST. A COASTAL STORM ASSOCIATED WITH TROPICAL CYCLONE SANDY MAY IMPACT THE AREA LATE IN THE WEEKEND AND INTO EARLY NEXT WEEK.”

Walbridge formed a circle with his thumbs and index fingers, and told listeners to look at his right thumb. It represented the southeastern section of the hurricane.
“He said he wanted to get to the southeast quadrant and ride the storm out,” said New London Dockmaster Barbara Neff. No one raised objections."
My apologies, you are correct, of course... your link shows the infamous YouTube video in Belfast right under the headline, I had THAT one on the brain, obviously...

Still, this nonsense about getting to the SE side of a storm 800+ miles wide is just that... Or, he obviously changed his mind between that interview, and the setting of a course as soon as he cleared Rhode Island Sound to a point between Hatteras, and Sandy's projected track at the time...
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
My only point is that I believe it is highly likely that his overconfidence in the accuracy of electronic position fixing and charting CONTRIBUTED to his decision to enter that cut...

......
It is unacceptable that he had tried that at night without being able to have a complete idea of the sea conditions, that is clear. But there is another point that I don't know if it was check out: Doing that at night he was surely relying completely on the plotter and the boat position on the electronic chart. Anybody had checked if the position of the boat on the electronic chart was accurate on that particular place?

There are some places where a considerable difference can be observed and I can tell you that is quite confusing. We are so used to have reliable data from the plotter than when it is obviously wrong there are a split second of fright before we take things on hand again. It happened late September on the entry of Lefkas channel when obviously the position of the boat on the electronic chart was incorrect. I had no problems and the dept was enough, even for mine considerable draft, but there have been an incredibly number of boats aground and I believe it has to do with people following the plotter, no matter what.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-14-2012 at 06:51 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
According to Walbridge's wife, he has sailed in many huricanes, and she brings up the East side of the cane again? Look here:
HMS Bounty captain 'wasn't gambling' with lives, wife says | Sympatico.ca News

...

"But he would like hurricanes because they pushed him, they made him go fast. And he's been in many hurricanes. I mean, I can't even count the number of hurricanes he's been in."
Yeah, right...

Quote:
McCann said her husband had been trying to navigate around the storm "and get on the east side of it, which is what he did do."
Is she referring to a snowstorm in the midwest at that time, or something?
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