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  #661  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I gotta chime in on this paper chart bizzness. You have to have paper charts on board and be proficaint in their use. Period. Yes we use them still in the wheel house on commercial vessels, even cruise ships. The computer plotters are neat and handy. I think most of them have a disclaimer " not for use as a primary navigation tool" or something. What did Joe say " One lightening strike" You may think your laying out a line and getting all the info, but your not. Paper isn't a throw back or nostalgic, it's how it's done. Newbie after newbie is skipping the essential step of learning how to navigate and using a computer. It's true computers are here to stay and may even take over the world someday, but if you are out there on the ocean navigating, you need to have paper on board. I don't have any doubt the Bounty was marking their position every hour on a chart. He surley knew where he was. It so reminds me of the Pride. This " I go faster when it's wicked windy sh!t" It's that racer sailor crap popping up again, I'm not gonna go there, but lives. Lives are being lost due to ego's making descisions and young fool's having mis guided confidence in the wrong leaders and blindly following them to sea. I wish I wish I was crewing on that damned boat, there would have been another mutiny on the Bounty and two people would be alive today.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-14-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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  #662  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeartsContent View Post
Certifications and regulations are designed as barrier to entry and protect those already there from competition. Not to mention that there is a lot of money in running certification programs.

Competence is derived from experience and can easily be verified by references.
While it is hypothetically possible to use certifications as a barrier to entry, and it may even happen in a few areas of specialty, it's absurd to suggest that this is their primary purpose. I think your extreme cynicism is distorting your view of reality here.

And references are not so easily verified these days. Due to fear over defamation lawsuits, many employers absolutely refuse to provide anything more than a verification of dates of employment. My employer has a special hot line set up just for that, and we're not allowed to say anything besides giving out the phone number.

I continue to insist that education means something. I know that book smarts alone isn't enough - you need practical experience be be truly competent (Malcolm Gladwell argues that it takes 10,000 hours in most fields). But you need both.

In the US's politically hyper-partisan environment, it has become fashionable for some to try to discount the importance of degrees and certifications by scornfully referring to educated people as "elites." Don't let yourself get caught up in that. Any time I fly on a plane, hop on a ferry, or get on a train, I want my pilot/captain/engineer to have both the book smarts AND the practical experience to keep me safe. I can't check references myself, so I want there to be a system in place to ensure that the people responsible for the safety of large numbers of people are fully qualified.
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  #663  
Old 11-14-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Listen, At the level of Captain we are discussing, ships the size of the Bounty, it's not a certification, It's an MMD. Or Credential, Mercahnt Marine Document. You can not qualify to test until you have documented years of experience. Not years on a calander, years between the sticks, years of on the job training, documented time. Only then can you test for the ticket, it's sea time coupled with school, exams and scrutiny,
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  #664  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
You can not qualify to test until you have documented years of experience. Captain Aaron
Of course that kind of credentials requires years of experience. Which Captain Walbridge had. And tell me how did that work out for him. . Experience doesnt gaurentee good decisions or does it? If his experience was one of running hurricanes as was posted on here ( not sure if its a fact or not), and he was successfull running hurricanes, did his experience give hin a false sense of security in them?

If experience leads to good decisions why do I see some people give advice on here to newcomers who want to take a 25 ft boat with no experience to the carribean and beyond and tell them to follow thier dream, that the rest of us are too cautious.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-15-2012 at 01:38 AM.
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  #665  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I posted earlier that there are a ton of dip sh!ts running boat's out there all the way up to unlimited tonnage. The fact is, a good seaworthy boat can carry a sailor to the caribbean from Fla. with a fairly small amount of experience and a lot of common sense. I'm an advocate of smart people with the right attitude seeking adventure on the sea with the right hull and equipment, forthought and weather outlook. I get mad at this "I like running in a Huricane, I sail faster" attitude. If that is the mind set, one should do it alone and not with a ship full of trusting soul's. It's frustrating even in the commercial world where you need all these endorsements to get the job when you know you have the chop's. There are job's I want but I need 1080 day's running as 200 mate before I qualify for my 500 ton even though I know I'm ready now. And there are dudes who are doing the job that have the time but not the chop's. I tell people out there all the time to get the skill's before they bring the people. I poked the Bounty with my nuckle 10 years ago when they where anchored in Key West, I was giving the crew rides to shore in my Harbour launch, it was soft and they were in a hurry to cover rot with house paint. The crew said they would'nt want to actually go to sea in the boat but they liked the training and nostalgia of the experience. I don't care what the Captains tonage was, he a had false confidence in his and the ships ability, un like that dude who got the bad rap for his seamanship in the perfect storm, was it a Tahiti Ketch? that rolled and despite his protest the coast guard insisted on rescue and one coastie died trying, only with the boat to found un harmed a few day's later. More ar less what happened, anyway's I know for sure the Lisence isn't a 100% of what one should used to evaluate a persons qualification, just look at the kid's these acadamy's pop out, and as soon as they get out there they realize it takes a lot more than good testing skill's to make it, the culture is harsh as well as the enviroment. I stand by my advice to those gifted with the common sense and desire to sail off in a seaworthy vessel, in the right conditions. I also want people to understand these Credentials in the bigger tonnage boats's are'nt handed out overnight in a safe boater class with a cartoon bobber as a mascot on the text pamplet cover. I say again that it is astounding that dude's meet the criteria and still come out stupid on the other side as well. But they do.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-15-2012 at 08:06 AM.
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  #666  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

An old guy told me something years & years ago & I always remembered it. " You can't bulls#$t the ocean."

Last edited by kjango; 11-15-2012 at 09:04 AM. Reason: mis-spelling
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  #667  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjango View Post
An old guy told me something years & years ago & I always remembered it. " You can't bulls#$t the ocean."
Another one I was told while crewing on a ship simular to the Bounty in size years ago " The sea is the great master who will accept no bad art"
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  #668  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
"Capt. Robin Walbridge stood on the deck of the 180-foot wooden sailing ship Bounty on the sunny afternoon of Oct. 25. The wind was so mild that the ship had motored back to harbor after a short sail. The Bounty was tied to a city pier in New London, Conn.

Walbridge told a small group that the Bounty would be leaving for St. Petersburg, Fla., that night instead of the next morning. He wanted to get a jump on a massive weather system coming from the south that forecasters were calling “historic” and that one already had dubbed “Frankenstorm.”

Walbridge formed a circle with his thumbs and index fingers, and told listeners to look at his right thumb. It represented the southeastern section of the hurricane.
“He said he wanted to get to the southeast quadrant and ride the storm out,” said New London Dockmaster Barbara Neff. No one raised objections."

Comment - not a lot of @#!*% time for a crew member to decide to leave the ship, a couple hours at most - and with a sense of loyalty towards each other, the storm still days away and the belief that the Captain would know what to do. Well, I can see how they decided to go, with such little time to consider the danger, they stuck together and went.
That's understanable. If only they had put the solidarity of the ship above the solidarity of the crew. Mates are on boat's to be a sounding board for the captain. A good mate say's, "hey wait a minuet Cap. That sounds risky" or "did you take this in to consideration." I just hope future schooner crew's Remember the mistakes and complacancy of the Pride of Baltiomore and now the Bounty, and stand up to their captain's ego and lust for "sailing Fast" like the weeeeeee of a kid on carnival ride or the ignorance and greed of the home office deciders on the Phantom. There is no doubt in my mind, if I were the mate on the Bounty, And I have the credentails, I'd stopped that guy from trying to out run that storm, I've done it in the past in Hugo ( and we did sink at the dock in P.R.) but not at sea. I was perparing to engage in sabbotage in order to keep the boat in harbour if my pleas's had not been headed. Hopefully the schooner community has learned this time, because there still seems to be a few nuckle heads running some of them out there.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-15-2012 at 11:20 AM.
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  #669  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Paradise View Post
.....Comment - not a lot of damn time for a crew member to decide to leave the ship, a couple hours at most - and with a sense of loyalty towards each other, the storm still days away and the belief that the Captain would know what to do. Well, I can see how they decided to go, with such little time to consider the danger, they stuck together and went.
I'm betting a round of drinks that this is exactly what happened and why the Capt will own this calamity.

Double or nothing says the Captain had in fact been other storms and became complacent in his decision making.
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  #670  
Old 11-15-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

And the Captain bashing keeps rolling on........we know he is to blame.[

Its like beating a dead horse.
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