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  #691  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
So they are lumping the Tall Ship Community into the recreational boating community and drawing a distinction from professional mariners.

However, I'm not entirely clear how they are stereotyping the two camps.
I agree that they are drawing steorotypes and as all sterotypes they are unfair to many.

I guess their main distinction in what regards professional mariners has to so how risks are viewed.

Regarding recreational boating I would say that even to me some things that are looked as normal to our community or some feats that are looked as great seamanship look to me just foolish things. I give you some example:

Guys that cross oceans and even circumnavigate with small children aboard or guys that cross oceans, go offshore in small old boats, many times knowing very little about sailing or sail for pleasure at high latitudes. Most of these guys are not looked by the sailing pleasure community as risky guys that not only risk their lives as the lives of their crews and the ones that are going to save them, but as guys that are doing the real thing, living the dream.

I am quite sure they are looked by the professional mariners as lunatics that should be prevented to put their feet on a boat.

Some examples:




Not always those dreams have an happy end but what makes the news is when they survive, not when they die.

Regards

Paulo
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  #692  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I would have thought the professional would consider the recreational community to be..... less professional. If less professional translates to high risk taking, I'm still confused by the fact that almost the entire recreational community is vilifying the Bounty for taking this risk.

Hard to follow.
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  #693  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Minnie,

I am not of the opinion that the Captain should not take full blame for HIS actions of sailing into the hurricane so I cant come up with an alternative scenarios. I will restate my belief for the 50th time HE IS REPSONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS FULLY .

Somehow when I, and others, have asked that we dont not rush to judjement on all of the factors which led to the sinking a few have construed that meant that we didnt hold the Captain responsible. I can only speak for myself and I do hold him responsible. Not sure why that gets lumped into defending him.

I do think there are other individuals and other factors which also contributed to this sinking and if ignored will prevent this incident from becoming a TRUE learning experience and the full impartial investigation of the sinking will lead to other contributory factors. This in turn may lead to other regulations or procedures to improve the odds of this not reoccuring. I beleive that is the purpose.

Continued focusing on the captain and bashing him ( a point to which there is no dissagreement) has become just a restatement of the same information and IMHO is beating a dead horse.

What is the lesson we learn from this tradgedy from those of you beleive that this Captain is the ONLY reason for the sinking.

Can any of you propose here concrete specific remedies and corrections here which will prevent a Captain from sailing his ship into a hurricane again?

If we dont LEARN from this experience it will for sure be repeated again. It is one thing to continually criticise things....anyone can do that. I have huge respect for anyone identify an issue and then who can propose actual remedies which will prevent this from reoccuring, which is the purpose of LEARNING.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-17-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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  #694  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I would have thought the professional would consider the recreational community to be..... less professional. If less professional translates to high risk taking, I'm still confused by the fact that almost the entire recreational community is vilifying the Bounty for taking this risk.

Hard to follow.
Yes, I agree it's hard to follow. Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see any difference between the criticisms he's getting from pros or amateurs. For the pros to suggest that there's a difference sounds a little elitist to me. Almost sounds like they're saying that, in lieu of actual facts, their speculation is more accurate than amateurs' speculation. And it might actually be more accurate, given their greater experience, but it's still speculation. That's why I'm waiting to hear more facts from the USCG investigation.
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  #695  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I would have thought the professional would consider the recreational community to be..... less professional. If less professional translates to high risk taking, I'm still confused by the fact that almost the entire recreational community is vilifying the Bounty for taking this risk.

Hard to follow.
The commercial marine transportation world see's anything that's not driven by 6000 HP as recreational. Anything with stick's as pleasure And dudes that sail off shore as ninkapoops. The scuttle but in the wheel houses I frequent are calling the Bounty a sensless, tragic, and down right stupid move.
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  #696  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I would have thought the professional would consider the recreational community to be..... less professional. If less professional translates to high risk taking, I'm still confused by the fact that almost the entire recreational community is vilifying the Bounty for taking this risk.

Hard to follow.
If you go to the beginning of this thread you would find many that thought that the Captain attitude was acceptable because a ship is safer at sea than in a port or because the captain was an experienced sailor that had sailed in worst weather, because the ship was able to stand to the conditions and so on, or that an investigation was needed to see if the Captain was to blame or not.

It took a long time and I would say many opinions of professional tall ship captains and professional mariners to reach a consensus that the Captain was irresponsible in sailing out if Port and face an Hurricane, not going away from it but sailing to its pass.

The same happened in other internet boating forums and on the Bounty facebook page were not only the Bounty members but many other posted nonsense about an heroic captain that was not to blame.

Professional mariners, from Tall ship Captains or expressed on gCaptain forum were very clear from the beginning seeing the Bounty's Captain decision as an irresponsible one. Even their views posted on this forum were initially subjected to harsh criticism.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-17-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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  #697  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
So they are lumping the Tall Ship Community into the recreational boating community and drawing a distinction from professional mariners.

However, I'm not entirely clear how they are stereotyping the two camps.
I had a scan through their stuff and I didn't see any reference to the small boat recreational community.

What I did see a lot of and it's an area that we haven't discussed because it doesn't really concern us, is the commercial shipping industry thinks the tall ships are evading government regulations and government safety inspections because they call unpaid volunteers, or unpaid people who pay for the privilege to be crew. The shipping industry thinks unpaid, or people paying to be crew are passengers. If they are passengers then its a commercial passenger ship and subject to much more stringent safety inspections.

They have a good point. However, we haven't been discussing that as we have more been into the what's right or wrong to do in certain types of weather etc.

Another thing that's popped up in the professional forum is the thought that tall ship regular crews are a particular type of seaman (sea person)... Long hair tied in pony tail, canvas trousers and bare feet, perhaps bordering on political and environmental views that differ from many other people.
That is a bit of a call.... But kinda correct too, from observation.
One could not expect some tall ship type crew getting a job on a container ship, not that they would want it.
That feeling seems to be coupled with thoughts that some tall ships captains have a stronger 'cult' type personality that projects above the necessity to have maintained bilge pumps etc.

So yes, it's interesting to read the gCaptain forum. They are all quite good posts, well, mostly just subjects that don't really,concern our take on the Bounty sinking.

There is one point of close similarity... They are putting a fair bit of the responsibility on the Captain. As recreational forums have done too.

Mark
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-17-2012 at 02:35 PM.
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  #698  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

What are the particular liscences Robin Walbridge had?
What are Captain Walbridges past experience,vessels he served on?
What disqualifies him from being a professional captain?
Are there 20,000 professional captains in the world?
What qualifications and professional checks do people who want to join the
social blog gCaptain have to undergo?
Is gCaptain really a professional organization or just another social media internet blog
site?

For instance ( I am not singling you out Minnie).. CAPA is a professional organization
for airline pilots ( my slip neighbor and best friend is a long time United Airlines
International Pilot) amd we were discussing this leats night in terms of lobbys.
ThirtyThousandFeet has a myriad of blogs concerning airplanes and airlines.

One is a professional organization of pilots which obvious qualifications ( and they are vetted) to post on...the other is a social media site which anyone can join and post on and can make up their credentials

gCaptain is what? a professional organziation with vetted credentials? or is a soicial media bloig site.

My point is here that when weighing statements, facts, and opinons to take into consideration the source. Thats all.
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  #699  
Old 11-17-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I was crew aboard a Tallship for 4 years, I ran around barefooted, wearing canvas pants cut off at the knee, climbed the rig in a blow with out a harness, and a knife in my teeth to deal with hung lines, sang sea shanty's as we actually walked around a capstain. I was paid all though not well. Actually I paid for the first 9 months as a student and was subsequently hired. Now I work on a commercial ocean tug, I must wear steel toe boot's a hard hat and work vest, Long pants and a blue collar shirt with an american flag patch on the sleeve. I must continue training and up grading my credentials and I am under a lot of scrutiny by my employer and the Coast Guard to work safe, paricipate in drill's and stay sober etc. In my free time I saill off shore in my 28 foot sloop or deliver other peoples, from the Key's to Honduras, Columbia, Where ever. The Captains I worked under on the Tall ship were incredably competant, they had just come from Antarctica when I joined.The Captains I work with now can handle a boat and make responsable decisions. My point is I have a pretty good insight to both culture's and some how fall inbetween. Captains are the first to call another captain a ding-aling when they make a poor decision, they should know.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-17-2012 at 02:59 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Minnie,

I am not of the opinion that the Captain should not take full blame for HIS actions of sailing into the hurricane so I cant come up with an alternative scenarios. I will restate my belief for the 50th time HE IS REPSONSIBLE FOR HIS ACTIONS FULLY .
This is the part that still seems to mystify. If we are in agreement that the Captain is fully responsible and we know that one of his crew lost their life, I don't understand why its repetition is anything other than expected. That's the i

Quote:
What is the lesson we learn from this tradgedy from those of you beleive that this Captain is the ONLY reason for the sinking.
Complacency will kill you or your crew or both. Failing to personally consider others decisions, even if from a really nice guy/captain who lived through danger before, could get you killed.
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Last edited by Minnewaska; 11-17-2012 at 02:50 PM.
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