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  #711  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Usually when people quote they do not copy the others moniker or avatar. It confusing and makes it look like I just posted this when it in fact was weeks ago. No one else on here does this ...any special reason?

Is your purpose on here to to help others or do you have a hidden agenda directed at me? You can try and point the finger back at me but before you do I suggest you look at your tone and posts specifically directed at me. I put you on ignore, but found out you were continuing to respond to my posts in a negative and inflamatory manner when they got forwarded to me by my friends on here though PM,s.

I apologize to others if I seem argumentative or seem distracted from my normal posts and I will try and do better. Sorry to waste your time with this nonsense. Lies cannot go unanswered lest they become perceived as the truth.

Dave
Dave, has I said before I did not attack you or anybody I am here to enjoy and learn and certainly I have nothing against you or anybody else. It was you that accused me of wrongdoing and for several times, saying that my tone was hysterical and accusing me of misquoting constantly without referring to what you are talking about. On the last post you are accusing me to lie, or to post lies and as usually you don't say to what you are referring to. Of course that should be unacceptable, but who cares? I never attacked you personally and if so, please post what you consider a personal attack.

I have diverged from your opinion as well as others and my tone was never rude but I don't fell that anybody has the right to tell the others when they should stop posting or stop expressing his opinion.

Regarding re-posting your post where you misquote me, that way is the only way to re-post it comprehensibly because as that post has quotes, they would not have appeared if I simply used the quote system and would make it incomprehensible. Regarding people thinking that it is a new post, it is inside my post, I say in what contest I am referring to it and at the end I send regard to you and post my name, so it is clear it is inside my post. Besides that it is clear on the re-post that is the post nļ 413 and we are now well over post 700 and that will tell people were the post was made and where to look for it, if they want to check it out.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-18-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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  #712  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
...
Combine the romance of crewing a ship that crossed oceans hundreds of years ago with the realization that they had to tackle severe weather and the thought of adventure can probably overcome the logic of risk management. Compound that with what appears to be a loophole in how these ships and their crew are regulated and that may have been the real perfect storm around Sandy.
Yes, I agree. There are holes in what regarding the crew needed to sail a tall ship and their qualifications (I don't mean the Captain but the number of sailors needed and their qualifications). There are holes in what regards the classification of this ships, holes that make possible some ships, including Bounty, to escape any serious qualified safety inspection and I do not mean to the safety items aboard but to the ship itself.

I guess that after this accident and the recommendations that will be given on the CG investigation, things are going to change in what regards the way these ships are regulated.

This is the second accident in a short time (Concordia) and that is not acceptable.

Regards

Paulo
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  #713  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

It will be economically impossible for a Tall Ship to stay in pristine enough condition to pass a serious modern safety inspection. They will have a very difficult time in defining what standard should be acceptable for a ship like Bounty. Further, they could restrict the severity of condition that they undertake a passage, but again, defining it will be difficult.

I think the most likely outcome will be a mandatory minimum crew that have minimum experience applicable to the vessel. Real professionals. They are much more likely to push back than adventuresome passengers lost in the romance of an 18th century tall ship.
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  #714  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Paulo,

Well I am a memeber of gCaptain and certainly not a professional. Its a social media site and I would not want to quote from it or pass it off as the " authority or on professional captains anymore tha Sailnet is>

Also your reporting from the social media site is not even handed and there is a much differening opinions on the site as on Sailnet.
.....
For isnstance the follwoing psoted on gCaptain



Professional organizations tend to have more credibility if you choose them to bolster you opinions than passing off a social blog sie as the authority on the sunbject and quoting them.
…You do have a lot of other good posts, however I think your time ( as well as mine) may have run its course on this thread.


Dave, I generically agree with that post you have quoted from gCaptain, in fact I have said that myself, I mean that the Tall Ship Community has also good Captains, sailors and ships run properly and that this case was menacing all community to be looked at risky unprofessional sailors.

This has nothing with what was posted on that forum regarding the Captain of the Bounty or the Bounty accident. This is a recent thread, not the one about Bounty accident.

By the way, the response of that post, that was made by a qualified tall ship crew and passenger vessel (1600 master) had very interesting replies that go on the direction Minnewaska and myself are pointing:

Capt Leigh
(1600 Master Oceans, 6000 Master OSV Oceans, MOT Inland/Gl, Master Inland AGT,2nd Mate) :

That was incredibly well stated, and with great restraint considering all the chatter of late.
We all lose track sometimes, and the anger over the loss of life due to one mans poor decision has many of the professional Mariners rightly upset. We don't suffer fools lightly, but none the less, no offense was meant to the many great teachers and Mentors of this TSC.

…..

cappy208
(1600GT Oceans, MTV, 1st Class Pilot, NY harbor, upper, lower, east r, DE)

Sorry. It IS a well deserved swollen, black and blue, bloodshot, tear stained eye!

While the concept of 'true' sailors, experienced crew and safe operations do exist.... The lack of knowledgeable oversight has been around since the concept of privately owned, pay for 'trainee' time, outward bound, shoestring budget operations started, the venerable HMS Bounty has done more to illuminate the tallship society for what it truly is. A way to run sailing ships with 'paying passengers' who are then listed as trainee, or some other name, so the vessels don't have to be inspected, meet full safety standards and put the entire 'crew' (wink wink) at risk.

There is a reason sailing ships were relegated to the dustbins of old. At the age of the Bounty (heck, even half the age... It even a quarter the age!) These old ships became barns, or were ran up on shore and became docks. I don't ever recall any old stories about any old 50 year old sailing boats that ended on a good note.

It is sad that an 'Industry' that does not pay a living wage to the entire crew, depends upon modern day impressment of seamen for manning, and uses a sneaky method of having help 'pay' and NOT be considered passengers that needs defending.

Makes me glad I saw the light 'working for Bob Douglas over 30 years ago. I was young, but saw the incongruity then. The Shennandoah is currently OUT of service. Why? She is 1 year younger than the Bounty. Coincidence? Most likely not!


C.Captain
(Ship captain?)

Just to get something clear here. BOUNTY was not a "Sail Training Vessel" which are inspected under 46CFR subchapter R and have a minimum safe manning determination. BOUNTY was an 46CFR subchapter C uninspected passenger vessel which is worse as far as any oversight goes regarding safety of construction and equipment but to the best of my knowledge, nobody aboard BOUNTY on Oct 29th had paid for the privilege to be there that awful night. They might have been volunteers however.

Fraqrat
(chief…I have sailed just about everything)

Most of us recognize there are many competent mariners,sailors, seamen in the TSC. Many feel it is unregulated high seas theatre. The vocal majority of bashers all agree on one thing the "Master" of that vessel FAILED his crew miserably. All of us that work in the oilfield had to endure this same thing after DWH. As we all know the truth hurts. Judging by all the comments here, on the news and the interweb this was not an isolated incident. As the oilfield people had to do now the TSC has to take a long hard look at itself.

Professional mariners are motivated to make a good wage and get home safely. In the TSC it appears that each vessel master has his on cult of personality and his fair share of sycophants for crew. In that instance you're only as safe as the guy making all the decisions.

This particular instance was a case of the blind leading the blind and it ended in catastrophe. If they had miraculously completed their voyage we would still find this man craven for taking that vessel out into a hurricane.


Steamer
(C/E Steam/motor/GT unlimited)

I think they were surprised that the professional mariner community (PMC) didn't bubble over with condolences and support after the tragic loss of one of their best and most experienced captains courageous.

It is as if they believe they share some bond with working sailors and actually believed someone here would give them a hug and say they understand how that big bad storm just came up out of nowhere and took the ship away from the heroic captain who gave his life fightng the elements in a futile attempt to save his ship and crew - they believe he did everything he could - yeah, right, he did everything except for getting them rooms in the nearest Holiday Inn and having a storm party in the bar until it passed.

If after 300+ posts telling them that their hero was a criminally negligent idiot you would hope that they would get the idea that something is wrong with their club and its members. They were in a position to prevent
this and didn't say or do a thing to stop it. They knew what kind of dangerous fool was running that ship, they had almost 20 years to watch him and never said a word about it. They used that ship and that idiot to promote their own dockside attractions and sideshow cruises.

Well, TSC apologists, look for sympathy and kind words elsewhere, most of us here just call it as we see it and there just aren't many who see much glory or glamour or professionalism in taking a rotting, undermanned, leaking, poorly maintained wooden carnival ride into what was recognized even before Bounty sailed as the largest hurricane ever to hit the US east coast.

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PMC, the one that posted what you re-posted here posts this, quoting another poster. I think it is enlightening:


Originally Posted by Fraqrat
"In the TSC it appears that each vessel master has his on cult of personality and his fair share of sycophants for crew."
PMC: "Thank you for your timely illustration of my point"


The Bounty fiasco and an undeserved black eye



I have said something similar on the other thread regarding the Bounty, talking about personality cult and the dangers of any cult, even a personality one, in what regards seamanship.



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-18-2012 at 10:08 AM.
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  #715  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
It will be economically impossible for a Tall Ship to stay in pristine enough condition to pass a serious modern safety inspection. They will have a very difficult time in defining what standard should be acceptable for a ship like Bounty. Further, they could restrict the severity of condition that they undertake a passage, but again, defining it will be difficult.

I think the most likely outcome will be a mandatory minimum crew that have minimum experience applicable to the vessel. Real professionals. They are much more likely to push back than adventuresome passengers lost in the romance of an 18th century tall ship.
I think that it will end the possibility of these ships to be classified as unispected passenger vessels (like the Bounty) and that all ships will have a mandatory proper inspection and not one only over safety items aboard.

As I have said, and agreeing with what you say, many of those ships, but not all, are fair or moderate weather ships and not able anymore to sustain with safety heavy weather.

I hope that as a result of those inspection these ships to be reclassified regarding the sea conditions they are authorized to sail. This seems to me the ruling that can prevent better more accidents and that will allow the Tall ships that have conditions to sail unlimited to carry on with their activity.

Regards

Paulo
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  #716  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

I understand the logic of putting to sea before a storm....the part I don't get is closing with the storm after putting to sea......duh
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  #717  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Further, they could restrict the severity of condition that they undertake a passage, but again, defining it will be difficult.
.
The ridiculous thing about this incident is even Captain Bligh would not have taken his ship near a hurricane if they knew one was there.

Your complacency post was a good one. Lets forget about tall ships and see how it relates to cruising sailors. Perhaps we need to consciously think about easy voyage as if it was our first one. Do those checks slowly and methodically.

In the Bahamas this year before the hurricane season started you may remember the weather was bad with a string of preseason storms.
I could not believe how many boats left Marsh Harbour to go to the USA in such bad weather! Talk about uncomfortable! not really dangerous, but uncomfortable!

I counseled a friend not to go... But he was "forced" to by crew. His voyage of three days was so bad he put his boat up for sale at the other end!!!
Oh and before the old timers start their slagging, it was one of those old fashioned full keel jobs, not a production boat.

My rules try to help avoid complacency... Never go when weather is deterieriating, never go on a MIXED SKY... Look up you cloud book but it means when you look up if there is sh!tty clouds are all different levels then stay put. Sounds damn easy!


Yes there's lots for us to learn from the Bounty. Complacency is a good one.


Mark
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  #718  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjango View Post
I understand the logic of putting to sea before a storm....the part I don't get is closing with the storm after putting to sea......duh
One thing I can't understand is hat he said he wanted to go east of the storm. How did he end up west of it?
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
One thing I can't understand is hat he said he wanted to go east of the storm. How did he end up west of it?
I still think that was a simple misstatement. Many will say East when then mean West and catch themselves. No? It's just me?
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  #720  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
It will be economically impossible for a Tall Ship to stay in pristine enough condition to pass a serious modern safety inspection. They will have a very difficult time in defining what standard should be acceptable for a ship like Bounty. Further, they could restrict the severity of condition that they undertake a passage, but again, defining it will be difficult.

I think the most likely outcome will be a mandatory minimum crew that have minimum experience applicable to the vessel. Real professionals. They are much more likely to push back than adventuresome passengers lost in the romance of an 18th century tall ship.
Problem is, pro's cost money. I make $3*** dollars a day and it just goes up from here....A day. The opperating cost's would go through the roof if you put 9 proprely credential seaman on board. A captain, first mate, second mate, third mate, 3 ab's and and engineer as minimum. They can pay us like that in the dangerous liquid cargo transportation industry because we charge a lot to transfer the product, You'd have to charge $500 a ticket for sunset sail to afford a professional crew on the tall ships / schooners. Maybe that's why they have incidents like this.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-18-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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