HMS Bounty in trouble... - Page 75 - SailNet Community

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  #741  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
You're right - most of them are steel - although this one HMB Endeavour is a world traveller (via the Horn no less!) and certainly not steel..
You can just look at that boat and see that it was built tough, I think the Bounty was not built to tarvel the world and I don't think it should have been out there at it's age. The ship I worked on was Fero-Cement, built in 1976 and it's still sailing the Globe. I think the worms were holding the Bounty together.
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  #742  
Old 11-18-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
... The ones I see that are sea worthy are Sweedish or Dutch. It takes a government to fund these things properly.
All seafaring European nations have at least on tall ship. In many cases it belongs to the Navy. Yes you are right it is needed government funds to maintain those boats and most of them if not all are steel sailing ships.

Most of the wooden old ones are maintained on the water or out of the water, but not in sailing condition, as historical ships and touristic attractions. To put this ones sailing it would be possible, but the cost would not be justifiable not even at government/country level.

Some of those famous wooden ones:





Fragata Dom Fernando II e Glória (Almada) - Distrito de Setúbal | Guia da Cidade | Região de Lisboa



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au08Z3NRi74





Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-18-2012 at 11:26 PM.
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  #743  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Yes... actually Cutty Sark is what was known as a "hybrid" (composite construction) - timber on iron frames - and Vasa isn't so much a ship as an exercise in advanced conservation techniques.. but, yes, you're right... and you missed all of the ones we have down here ("famous" being a relative term)..

..but back to the story at hand.
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Last edited by Classic30; 11-19-2012 at 01:31 AM.
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  #744  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
....Does anyone know for sure without a shadow of doubt what inspections if any the Bounty went through or did not go through? The fact they may not have been required is not proof that they didnt.

First hand knowledge or report from a government agency will suffice. I prefer not to make assumptions and hypothesis unless it is a known fact.....
There is proof they were inspected. I think it's been posted before.

The Bounty was an "uninspected passenger" vessel, as you can see in the next link, but that apparently doesn't mean its never inspected. From what I've read, the difference is whether she is inspected for the basics or for serious seaworthiness. While I can't find copies of the inspection documents themselves, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable can describe what these would have been on an uninspected passenger vessel. That should not require the results of an investigation to clarify.

USCG CGMIX PSIX Vessel Details Page

I think it is also important to point out that complying with regulation never insures safety. You are required to have PFDs aboard, but people routinely drown. Inspected vessel are known to sink as well. It almost always comes back to one's judgement.

To restrict the Tall Ships to serious professional crews when making a passage would undoubtedly restrict their mobility, perhaps prevent it. I've seen armadas of Tall Ships celebrate various holidays, most typically our Independence Day on Jul 4th. It must be our pride, as a new country, in defeating the most powerful Navy in the world at the time.

However, I will never look upon one again, without the thought of the risk it may have taken to arrive and I'm not impressed.
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  #745  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Ship builder's should build the strongest and well built ships they can. If they are building a replica of a 19th century wooden tall ship, the should'nt just go for the look but the integrity which which those ships were built. Look at the house's that ship's carpenters built in Key West, they are are still there, I rent a little studio in a house that was built circa 1860 by ship's carpenters. And the ships should be decommisioned when the beam's are rotten and the plank's are old and butter. The Bounty was OLD. my Grandpa was a hell of a football player when he was 20, He wasn't playing in the big leagues at 40, or 50, or 60.....The tug I'm working on this hitch was built in 1960 and it's about to be taken out of service. And yes, there need's to be a governing body that say's no, that old boat has no buisness going to sea with volenteers, payed crew or students. One problem is our Coast Guard is comprised of a bunch of pencil pushing Land Lubbe'rs. Any one that has the sea coursing through there veins would never join the coast Gaurd. My neighborhood pub is a block from the gate of the Key West Coast Guard Station. Ask any of the Coasties sitting in there where they are from. 9 times out of 10 they are from a land locked state. We are pushing for a Merchant Marine Body to Govern the Merchant Marine's because the coast Guard Has there prority's all out of whack. As for meesing with Huricanes, It's just stupid. Somebody Hired the Bounty Captain, I'm betting someone with little or no experience at sea, there fore he could convince them he was capable of making wize decsisions, didn't his wife say's he had been in lot's of huricanes?
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  #746  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
.....Ask any of the Coasties sitting in there where they are from. 9 times out of 10 they are from a land locked state........
Haven't met a pilot born in the sky yet. I don't think this is a serious disqualifier. I understand the frustration with bureaucracy. I'm willing to wager a round at Sloppy Joes that the FAA is more bureaucratic, almost all of which have never flown an aircraft at all. Still, there are some very capable USCG officers.

Quote:
.....didn't his wife say's he had been in lot's of huricanes?
I think she did. I know the Captain himself is on tape saying so, as well as one of the rescued crew members. I believe it was the first mate.
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  #747  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
To restrict the Tall Ships to serious professional crews when making a passage would undoubtedly restrict their mobility, perhaps prevent it. I've seen armadas of Tall Ships celebrate various holidays, most typically our Independence Day on Jul 4th. It must be our pride, as a new country, in defeating the most powerful Navy in the world at the time-Minniewaska.
I wasnt talking about a whole crew of professionals here. Some of the opinions expressed here were that you had a bunch of syncophants or cult ( tall ship groupies) sailing this ship. Not sure I completely agree with that characterization, but knowing that the Captain is the only professional aboard the ship, a ship which characteristics are not necessarily like other sailing ships doesnt seem like a great idea and may be something which needs to be addressed.

To the point about the tall ships owned by governments, looking at Eagle, Gloria, Godspeed, Dewaruci, Cauhtemoc, and Guayas this summer at the Baltimore OP Sail, these are maintained by governments and used by their navies as training vessels for their navies. Thats a different class of tall ships IMHO for what we are talking about. You cant compare the to the Bounty

Minnie, you are in the airline industry...how do they deal with the issue you raised here of complacency? How often is complacency identified as a cause in airplane accidents? What steps does the industry use to combat it and are any of them apprapo to be used to overt a disaster like this?
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  #748  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
One problem is our Coast Guard is comprised of a bunch of pencil pushing Land Lubbe'rs. Any one that has the sea coursing through there veins would never join the coast Gaurd.-Captain Aaron
Pretty broad brush you are painting with here. I know many of the people at the USCG Station Cape May and most are pretty well put together. They do a major amount of resucues, drug interdiction, port control and just basic grunt work there. Most of them are dedicated career minded who take seriously their responsibiloity.

At the same time I agree with you about some of the administrative eleements of the CG. That is usual in all large neaurocratic instittutions which have a political basis necesaary for funding therefore oversight.

dave
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  #749  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

You guys still flogging a dead horse? Geez....
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  #750  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
You guys still flogging a dead horse? Geez....
No. We are learning something that might benefit the chances of us surviving our next cruise.

You are not being forced to partake.


Now, back to the Coast Guard and whatever an un inspected passenger ship is...

The CG may get a grilling in an inquiry... And the outcome may be interesting:

The Bounty certainly had a lot of certificates, but does each one mean an actual inspection? And to what degree?
Quote:
CERTIFICATE OF DOCUMENTATION USCG July 25, 2012 July 31, 2013
Tonnage Certificate, International ABS July 16, 2012
Certificate of Inspection USCG May 16, 2012 September 30, 2012
Certificate of Inspection - Amended USCG May 16, 2012 September 30, 2012
Certificate of Inspection USCG April 5, 2012 April 5, 2013
Certificate of Inspection USCG April 5, 2012 September 30, 2017
Certificate of Inspection USCG December 20, 2011 April 1, 2012
Tonnage Certificate, International ABS July 25, 2011
Stability Letter June 15, 2011
Certificate of Inspection USCG May 20, 2011 May 20, 2012
Certificate of Inspection USCG March 5, 2011 March 5, 2012
Certificate of Inspection - Amended USCG March 3, 2010 March 3, 2011
Certificate of Inspection USCG March 3, 2010 March 3, 2011
Certificate of Inspection USCG March 3, 2009 March 3, 2010
Certificate of Inspection - Amended USCG March 3, 2009 March 3, 2010
USCG CGMIX PSIX Vessel Details Page

Some of the threads on gCaptain are about some photos of Bountys engine room allegedly taken in May 2012. Those photos have now been removed from public view but some of the comments about the standard of the engine room remain.
I think those photos would come out in an enquiry.
Maybe a lot of the comment on gCaptaain on apparent oddities in the engine room will be discounted, but with the photos there some may need to be explained by the CG as to why certain certificates were issued and what they mean.
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-19-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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