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  #791  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Yes I guess it has similarities but here a Port captain is never a lieutenant-.PCP
Our larger ports are not under the jurisdiction of Jr Officers at all. Comparing the area amount of waterways between coastal Portugal and the entire United States not a realistic comparison. Portugal has less coastline than Florida or Maine . Therefore their will be less ranked officers in charge of some of the minor tribuataries and ports.

Here is a quick refernece to the CG. One of their major missions is SAR and always has been

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Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Probably how the professional truckers feel about car drivers.
Probabaly how the cowboys felt about the settlers going west to populate the US
Probabaly how the landowners in the country feel about the amateur hunters
Proabaly how the professional pilots feel about amatuers taking flying lessons


I am sure the professionals or people who make their professions feel this about people who utilize their space in a recreational manner.

Their are multiple layers of police who gaurd assist in the waters in coastal United Staes and it isnt necessarily always the CG intervening. I fact the CG has turned a lot of calls from recereational boaters over to other first responders and have changed their protocols. In addition there are many money making organizations who respond to most boating problems the people you describe above would require response to. Generally they dont respond unless their is potential loss of life immediately or they are the only game in town.

Overall I have respect for the CG and have seen a degree of professionalism throughout most of my dealings with them. very organization has its Wyatt Earps. Every big organization which has a political head has its beauracracy.

In todays world of terrorism I like seeing their presence in our waterway and harbor. I like seeing them escorting the cruise ships.
Can't argue with that, however the week end sailor used to have to have a much broader skill set than today, First they invented the engine, all of a sudden you didn't need to know how to sail, then the radio direction finder, no need to learn to navigate, now the chart plotter, why learn to read a chart, clips and jam's, why learn how to handle line,..........
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Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
.... however the week end sailor used to have to have a much broader skill set than today, First they invented the engine, all of a sudden you didn't need to know how to sail, then the radio direction finder, no need to learn to navigate, now the chart plotter, why learn to read a chart, clips and jam's, why learn how to handle line,..........
It seems that there is yet some good amateur sailors out there. About this one I have mixed feelings: I would have not attempted to cross the Atlantic in such a light and small cat, I guess that it was risky and foolish but at least the guy took the risks alone, did not cry for help when things went wrong (and he had an Epirb) and I guess he would have made it back home alone.

BBC News - Skipper of missing Orinoco Flo 'gutted' to be rescued

Boat builder stranded alone at sea for 50 DAYS after mast snapped as he crossed the Atlantic in friend's boat | Mail Online

Regards

Paulo
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Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It seems that there is yet some good amateur sailors out there. About this one I have mixed feelings: I would have not attempted to cross the Atlantic in such a light and small cat, I guess that it was risky and foolish but at least the guy took the risks alone, did not cry for help when things went wrong (and he had an Epirb) and I guess he would have made it back home alone.

BBC News - Skipper of missing Orinoco Flo 'gutted' to be rescued
I, for one, wish there were more people out there like that.
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Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
Can't argue with that, however the week end sailor used to have to have a much broader skill set than today, First they invented the engine, all of a sudden you didn't need to know how to sail, then the radio direction finder, no need to learn to navigate, now the chart plotter, why learn to read a chart, clips and jam's, why learn how to handle line,..........
Come on, Aaron! Don't get pathetic about it.
That's like saying Neanderthals were better than us because they could make arrows and capture game.

Electronics have made boating vastly safer for all. They have allowed many people to go sailing vastly more safely than previously.

Just go read a book like Gentelmen never sail to weather and you will see how many times these idiots nearly died.

Just go around a marina or cruising area and have a talk to people. Vastly more intelligent than the critics suggest. Also far more accomplished in cruising, navigation, rules of the road, understanding and respecting other cultures as well as the sea fish and wildlife.

Because paper and sextants have been shoved up the ass of the garbage can people can now relax and enjoy the important parts of boating.

And if people think its gone to hell, then look at the statistics of cruiser type fatalities. Since GPS and Ecn they are a fraction of what hey were in the 1970s, let alone including the increased number of people doing it.

The modern advent of boat systems have opened the oceans to all. And that makes a lot of old timers very angry because they have lost their uniqueness.


Mark <----- who circumnavigated and says ANYONE can do it!!! And everyone who wants to should
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  #796  
Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

There are a ton of amatuer sailors that are absolute pro's. There are professional sailors that suck. Like the cattle-maran kids in key west harbor. In my world, if the boat is less than 85 feet it's tiny and therefore rather easy to handle, the boat I steer at work is 400 feet long when all hooked up. It's relative. You don't want mariners with no formal training driving vessel's of significant tonnnage and gurth, however I bet some of the 1600 ton guy's I work with would be sh!tting there pants off shore in a 28 foot sail boat. They'd be lost and almost none of them know how to sail.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Come on, Aaron! Don't get pathetic about it.
That's like saying Neanderthals were better than us because they could make arrows and capture game.

Electronics have made boating vastly safer for all. They have allowed many people to go sailing vastly more safely than previously.

Just go read a book like Gentelmen never sail to weather and you will see how many times these idiots nearly died.

Just go around a marina or cruising area and have a talk to people. Vastly more intelligent than the critics suggest. Also far more accomplished in cruising, navigation, rules of the road, understanding and respecting other cultures as well as the sea fish and wildlife.

Because paper and sextants have been shoved up the @#!*% of the garbage can people can now relax and enjoy the important parts of boating.

And if people think its gone to @#!*% , then look at the statistics of cruiser type fatalities. Since GPS and Ecn they are a fraction of what hey were in the 1970s, let alone including the increased number of people doing it.

The modern advent of boat systems have opened the oceans to all. And that makes a lot of old timers very angry because they have lost their uniqueness.


Mark <----- who circumnavigated and says ANYONE can do it!!! And everyone who wants to should
First of all, from what I understand, you have completed a circumnavigation and are on your way to to the Med. So...hat's off to you my man, And every thing you said is true. How ever, I was raised on traditional seamaship, I've been eating it for breakfast since I was a kid, I suckled it from my mothers breast, I sail a little sloop alone with no engine and a compass across oceans and I've been doing that for 20 years. I also use the newest gadgets on delivery's of new Yachts. The Radar I opperate on the tug is sick, I can see kayakers on it. The AIS, the 30" chart plotter etc. I like to be versatile in my skill's and types of boat's I can run, and I think a solid foundation in some of the old tried and true art's free's me from the bond's of technology. Factories full of people and computer engineers have'nt made it possible for me to cross an ocean, I don't need any of that crap, I just think it's neat not necasarry. I used to think it was pathetic to go to sea with out a certain skill set, I used to look at your computers as training wheel's, but I get it now. I see guy's like you sailing around the world and I'm happy you guy's are out there doing it, it's inspirational.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-19-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 11-19-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
. I used to think it was pathetic to go to sea with out a certain skill set, I used to look at your computers as training wheel's, but I get it now. I see guy's like you sailing around the world and I'm happy you guy's are out there doing it, it's inspirational.
Thanks for the nice thoughts it's been good, and stays good, except for minor problems like this one that's kept me in one spot for three weeks
It isn't inspirational. It's easy

I think the skill set we think the old guys had is pretty exaggerated.
My first off shore races when I was 17, I had already raced for years in the Harbour so I knew how to sail, but offshore was a shock. Every morning I would wake up to the navigator and skipper looking through the gloomy dawn saying: ",is that Norah Head?" Or some other point. And I would look out at the thin grey line of the coast knowing I wouldn't know if I'd seen it a million times, just a thin grey line.

So I thought that skipper and navigator must be dickheads.

Next boat I was on was exactly the same!

God knows how a whole race fleet got to Hobart. Must have all just followed one another, and the guys who could count 22 lighthouses and turned right, won!

So don't tell me they could navigate. If it was easy to take a sextant sight they wouldn't have been kicking the SatNav machine for 8 hours to get one fix putting you somewhere 300 miles ashore.

Don't tell me the guys who say they can reduce a sight actually can, they can't. They put it into a calculator and push the button. That's what they did in the 70's and did till GPS came out, then all the crap was shoved in the bottom draw and never, ever looked at since.

Don't tell me the professional fishermen could work out the weather by looking out the wheelhouse and sniffing the air.... Fishing was the most dangerous occupation in Australa till the 1980s when weather radar was first effectively used.

And we could discuss ships now going much slower than they used to because their nav is so much better they can clip hours off each day with tight nav and weather routing, schedules are still virtually the same, just the speed has gone down.

For the novice sailor now he has already used all the navigation and communication tools used on a boat! Yes! He has already used computers, electronic maps on his PC, iPhone and car Tom Tom thing, used his phone like a sat phone, used binoculars to perve at girls.
So the learning curve isn't as huge as learning a sextant, Maths, almanacs and pricking his finger with dividers, a funny ruler on wheels, a protractor he hated at school, all whilst vomiting...

We shouldn't look back with rosé colored glasses... Just look at the chart of cape Fear to Cape Lookout and see that long line of wrecks. That line has NOT been added to by cruisers out on their Mum and Dad jaunts to the Bahamas and Carribbean in the last 20 years..... They were all there from when the old timers held sway... Until the Bounty, of course.

I'm not saying recreational cruisers are all wonderful sailors but we have the tools that do make it much easier. We can't outlaw ding-a-lings, and tragedies happen too often, but the benefits of cruising outweigh them

Mark
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-20-2012 at 09:58 AM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Thanks for the nice thoughts it's been good, and stays good, except for minor problems like this one that's kept me in one spot for three weeks
It isn't inspirational. It's easy

I think the skill set we think the old guys had is pretty exaggerated.
My first off shore races when I was 17, I had already raced for years in the Harbour so I knew how to sail, but offshore was a shock. Every morning I would wake up to the navigator and skipper looking through the gloomy dawn saying: ",is that Norah Head?" Or some other point. And I would look out at the thin grey line of the coast knowing I wouldn't know if I'd seen it a million times, just a thin grey line.

So I thought that skipper and navigator must be @#!*% .

Next boat I was on was exactly the same!

God knows how a whole race fleet got to Hobart. Must have all just followed one another, and the guys who could count 22 lighthouses and turned left, won!

So don't tell me they could navigate. If it was easy to take a sextant sight they wouldn't have been kicking the SatNav machine for 8 hours to get one fix putting you somewhere 300 miles ashore.

Don't tell me the guys who say they can reduce a sight actually can, they can't. They put it into a calculator and push the button. That's what they did in the 70's and did till GPS came out, then all the crap was shoved in the bottom draw and never, ever looked at since.

Don't tell me the professional fishermen could work out the weather by looking out the wheelhouse and sniffing the air.... Fishing was the most dangerous occupation in Australa till the 1980s when weather radar was first effectively used.

And we could discuss ships now going much slower than they used to because their nav is so much better they can clip hours off each day with tight nav and weather routing, schedules are still virtually the same, just the speed has gone down.

For the novice sailor now he has already used all the navigation and communication tools used on a boat! Yes! He has already used computers, electronic maps on his PC, iPhone and car Tom Tom thing, used his phone like a sat phone, used binoculars to perve at girls.
So the learning curve isn't as huge as learning a sextant, Maths, almanacs and pricking his finger with dividers, a funny ruler on wheels, a protractor he hated at school, all whilst vomiting...

We shouldn't look back with rosé colored glasses... Just look at the chart of cape Fear to Cape Lookout and see that long line of wrecks. That line has NOT been added to by cruisers out on their Mum and Dad jaunts to the Bahamas and Carribbean in the last 20 years..... They were all there from when the old timers held sway... Until the Bounty, of course.

I'm not saying recreational cruisers are all wonderful sailors but we have the tools that do make it much easier. We can't outlaw ding-a-lings, and tragedies happen too often, but the benefits of cruising outweigh them

Mark
I hear ya, I don't spend a god awful amount of time trying to figure out where I am. I just dead reckon. I can spit over the side and I know my speed, and My compass tell's me the direction I've been going, eventually a mountain or a point, or the glow of a city appears on the horizon and I start piloting my way towards it. I've been trying to tell people how easy it is for years. I'm fixing to get my all oceans endorsement on my 500 ton international mate lisence and celestial is a big part of the test. No big deal, it's not all that hard to do a short hand noon sight. Getting around with out technology is a big part of what I like about cruising. I'm not against it, just being dependant on it. You should let me know when you are in Key west, love to hear your sea stories and have more enlightening disscusion's on the paper vs. comp. screen, I'll buy the first 2 rounds at Finnegan's Wake.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 11-19-2012 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
...

So don't tell me they could navigate. If it was easy to take a sextant sight they wouldn't have been kicking the SatNav machine for 8 hours to get one fix putting you somewhere 300 miles ashore.

Don't tell me the guys who say they can reduce a sight actually can, they can't. They put it into a calculator and push the button. That's what they did in the 70's and did till GPS came out, then all the crap was shoved in the bottom draw and never, ever looked at since.

.....
I'm not saying recreational cruisers are all wonderful sailors but we have the tools that do make it much easier. We can't outlaw ding-a-lings, and tragedies happen too often, but the benefits of cruising outweigh them

Mark
Mark, tools just make the live easier but basic knowledge can be necessary. Here for having a licence that permits you to cross Oceans (I am talking about private boats) you have to know how to find your way in the Ocean without GPS, computers or even or dedicated calculators. Everything is made by hand and that's a indispensable part of the examination. If you don't know how to do it you will not pass.

Regarding to be easy there is a guy that cross Oceans in a boat the size of a kayak doing all navigation with a small sextant he invented. If the guy can make it on a kayak that will not be difficult on a much bigger boat, not everyday, but that is part of the navigation: Far away of the shore you have only to know your approximated position and where you are going. With more settled weather you will have a good reading and will know precisely where you are.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-20-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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