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  #821  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Please post a link to your source for these statistics. I did not realize that the frequency of rescues was actually rising and I would be very interested in seeing this.

Or does it just seem like this because of TV shows like Coast Guard Alaska and web sites like Sail net?
I thought it was evident. Why don't you look yourself the data? It is not difficult.



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Paulo
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  #822  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by therapy23 View Post
I suppose it is similar. They do have lots of statistics that they share portions of. But since I think insurance companies are basically evil I have to say that they will never be truly fair in pricing the cost for anyone. I don't know how the oversight is where you are. Here it is strictly regulated but they get away with "murder" all the time.
Evil.... I guess they are there not to lose money.... but they are in competition. Here the big competition seems to be between Groupama and Pantaenius. For winning clients they offer what they can without losing money and for that they have to have a good risk assessment and that's what I was talking about.

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Last edited by PCP; 11-20-2012 at 08:22 PM.
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  #823  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post

And if people think its gone to hell, then look at the statistics of cruiser type fatalities. Since GPS and Ecn they are a fraction of what hey were in the 1970s, let alone including the increased number of people doing it.

The modern advent of boat systems have opened the oceans to all. And that makes a lot of old timers very angry because they have lost their uniqueness.
Do you have a cite, or a source for those statistics? It would be interesting to be able to do such a direct comparison, but I'm not aware of any such reliable compilation of cruiser fatalities, rescues at sea, numbers of boats lost, and so on which would make such comparisons meaningful...

One would certainly think that much of the modern gear we have now taken for granted would have reduced the overall percentage of such incidents... But in my own personal observation, that seems clearly not to have been the case, at least up and down the east coast of North America, and throughout the Caribbean. And, an old hand like Don Street would definitely agree - don't get him started on the subject of "GPS/chartplotter-assisted stupidity" in the Caribbean, he will definitely make some of the ladies in the audience blush...(grin) Or, have a chat with a long-time dockmaster like Jeb Brearey at Beaufort Town Docks, he could fill a book with anecdotes that really have to make one wonder about the comparative skills and abilities of today’s kroozers taking southern sabbaticals, relative to those of 30 or 40 years ago…

When I first began venturing into the Bahamas, a Northstar 6000 Loran was about the size of a large microwave oven, cost a few thousand bucks, and would only help you get as far as Nassau, or thereabouts... Beyond that, you were on your own, and the charts were not as remotely reliable as today... As a result, people who did make it to the Out Islands and southern Bahamas did so by relying on a heavy dose of caution, and the traditional cautions against sailing those waters in poor light, or after dark… Sure, the number of boats that made it to places like Georgetown were a fraction of what they are today, but I certainly see no diminishment whatsoever in the number of mishaps that occur in those waters, today… If anything, they appear proportionally greater, to me… and, I'd be willing to bet anything, a guy like Don Street would agree...

The principal limiting factor for sailors relative to their experience has always been their ability to find their way to their destination. Prior to GPS, it would have been highly unusual for someone to set off for a destination such as Bermuda, without a considerable amount of experience which eventually mastered the art of celestial… Such is no longer the case today, of course. You’re right, modern electronics - IN THEORY - have made voyaging far safer, but at the cost of being a major double-edged sword, thus enabling less experienced sailors to set off for destinations heretofore unimagined to sailors lacking in the more advanced forms of navigation, and seamanship…

As I stated earlier, I consider an incident like the RULE 62 tragedy to be a “GPS-enabled” event, no way would that guy have attempted that move 30 years ago… Sir Francis Chishester sailed GYPSY MOTH around the world singlehanded pretty much without incident back in ’67, but it took a fully-crewed compliment with all the modern bells and whistles to put her on a reef in the Tuomotus a few years ago… Go figure…

One more thing, that Casey alludes to in one of his posts... Again, only in my own personal observation, the inclination of today's sailors towards any sort of "self-rescue" is WAY down from what it was years ago... I don't think I've ever made a trip south, for example, without hearing at least one ICW kroozer calling frantically for SeaTow after going aground ON A RAPIDLY FALLING TIDE...

In a world where your chartplotter places your position on the earth's surface to a degree of accuracy far smaller than the size of your boat, it can be tough to convince such folks that the most prudent course of action might simply be to wait a few hours, until the rising tide floats you free... (grin)
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-20-2012 at 08:35 PM.
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  #824  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
“Naturally I was a little hesitant about that, but [the captain] explained the situation and it seemed like he had a pretty good strategy,” Barksdale said. “We were going to try and get around the hurricane. Nobody knew that it was going to have the in-tensity and size it ended up having.”
So the reports of deaths in the Bahamas, terms like "Frankenstorm", predictions of at least one, if not two other fronts colliding with Sandy were explained away as no biggie because the captain had a good strategy? Maybe we should revisit the whole cult and brainwashing thing again.
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  #825  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Maybe we should revisit the whole cult and brainwashing thing again.
Following and trusting too much yes...cult...no IMHO

Quote:
As I stated earlier, I consider an incident like the RULE 62 tragedy to be a “GPS-enabled” event, no way would that guy have attempted that move 30 years ago- JonEisenburg
I dont agree that this was the reason. I am suprised that you arent consistant in your thinking here and dont blame the Captain of the Rule62 as you did the one on the Bounty fully for not excercising good judgement in staying at sea. Its a huge leap to say that he went there because of a chartplotter. Do you even know if it was functioning? He should have stayed in deep water as there was no danger of his vessels sinking there. He lacked the experience to sail the 1500 in the conditions he was in or he erred in judgement...just like the other Captain. He is to blame for ther death of the passanger....just like the other Captain. He placed the ship in the dangerous position...just like the other Captain. He gave into the pleadings of his crew...bad jusgement again. He would have attempted to go in where he did wether he had a chartplotter or charts.

I certainly agree tha reliance on electronics soley is dangerous and short sighted. But lets face it if used in conjunction with the tried and true navigational aides as well as proper judgement the elctronic instruments can be a great advantage in safety. Electronics can be used to enhance safety and shoulkdnt be dependied upon soley for safety.

If the Captain on the Titanic had radar...chances are the ship wouldnt have hit the iceberg and his route would have been further south as he saw them on his scope/ plotter. How may would be lost without EPIRBs?

Fighting or demeaning the use of electronics keeps you further and further back in the dark ages. Its like fighting the use of computers.


Dave
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  #826  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote:
As I stated earlier, I consider an incident like the RULE 62 tragedy to be a “GPS-enabled” event, no way would that guy have attempted that move 30 years ago- JonEisenburg
I dont agree that this was the reason. I am suprised that you arent consistant in your thinking here and dont blame the Captain of the Rule62 as you did the one on the Bounty fully for not excercising good judgement in staying at sea. Its a huge leap to say that he went there because of a chartplotter. Do you even know if it was functioning? He should have stayed in deep water as there was no danger of his vessels sinking there. He lacked the experience to sail the 1500 in the conditions he was in or he erred in judgement...just like the other Captain. He is to blame for ther death of the passanger....just like the other Captain. He placed the ship in the dangerous position...just like the other Captain. He gave into the pleadings of his crew...bad jusgement again. He would have attempted to go in where he did wether he had a chartplotter or charts.
Sorry, but I'm really mystified by my apparent inability to make myself understood by you on this point... (grin)

There is no 'inconsistency' in my assigning responsibility for both these tragedies to either captain... Let me try one more time to make it clear: THEY ARE BOTH SOLELY, AND COMPLETELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LOSS(ES) OF THEIR VESSELS AND CREW...

I'm only surmising that the skipper of RULE 62 thought such a transit of the North Bar Channel was do-able, due to his undue confidence in the accuracy of his means to navigate that cut, at night, in a rage... One more time: IT WAS LIKELY A CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN HIS DECISION, NOTHING MORE...It's possible, of course, that he might have attempted to do so without such means at his disposal - but I simply find that possibility highly unlikely...

So, then, how do YOU know that he WOULD have attempted to enter that cut that night, nevertheless? Whether he had a functioning plotter, Explorer Charts, or not?
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  #827  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Do you have a cite, or a source for those statistics? It would be interesting to be able to do such a direct comparison, but I'm not aware of any such reliable compilation of cruiser fatalities, rescues at sea, numbers of boats lost, and so on which would make such comparisons meaningful...
Fortunately i can help you out.
RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year

As posted earlier in this thread and great stats too!
From 1980 till now the drop is about 2/3. I.e. 30 years ago there were three times the number of rescues by the coast guard in those statistics provided.

Half as many people dies nowadays as 30 years ago.
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  #828  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Jon,

Sorry I frustrate you by my lack of understanding or agreement

Quote:
So, then, how do YOU know that he WOULD have attempted to enter that cut that night, nevertheless? Whether he had a functioning plotter, Explorer Charts, or not?

Fact is he did enter it. He chose to head for land because the people on board were sick and complaining/ pleading. Most of the other vessels in his situation rode it out or hove to. He had that option and chose to set a course for the land under pressure from his crew. He took a perefectly sound boat in no ral or apparent danger and put it in danger by entering shallow waters and attempting to run the North Bar Channel

It was you who assumed he had a chartplotter on and that he wasnt looking at his charts, not me by your post. He would have done the same thing 30 years ago with just charts IMHO, he was just reckless........just like the Bounty Captain
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  #829  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Fortunately i can help you out.
RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year

RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year

Quote:
As posted earlier in this thread and great stats too!
From 1980 till now the drop is about 2/3. I.e. 30 years ago there were three times the number of rescues by the coast guard in those statistics provided.

Half as many people dies nowadays as 30 years ago.

I am actually suprised. I though it would be more too. I guess that shoots the whole electrontics has lerad to more dangerous sailing taking more risks theory and costoing us more money.

Now whos the first one going to say these arent accurate or most events arent recorded?????
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  #830  
Old 11-20-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I thought it was evident. Why don't you look yourself the data? It is not difficult.



Cospas-Sarsat Distress Alerts

Regards

Paulo
Sorry, but you're playing games with the numbers. The chart you show is not total number of SAR missions, it's the number that involve the Cpspas-Sarsat system. Basically the chart shows growth in the implementation of that system, not a growth of the overall number of SAR missions.

The RITA data that MarkofSeaLife linked shows quite definitively that there has been a dramatic reduction of SAR missions

1985: 60,775 cases; 88,000 sorties
2010: 22,226 cases; 23,159 sorties

There are many other metrics on that site, and virtually every one shows a sustained and dramatic reduction of incidents over the past 25 years. The trend is unmistakable.

So while it may initially seem plausible that "false security" of electronics is leading to more accidents, it is not true. In fact, the statistics would seem to show the opposite - that the new technology is making people safer and helping them to avoid accidents. And when accidents happen, the likelihood of successful rescue goes up.

So maybe we should tone down the rhetoric a bit. Safety is getting better, not worse. Fewer incidents are happening. Fewer people are dying. Technology is a good thing.

I'll repeat my prior suggestion that TV shows, proliferation of camcorders and camera phones, and the instantaneous publicity of incidents by the blogosphers makes it SEEM like there are more incidents, but the data prove that there are actually fewer.
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