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  #831  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Do you have a cite, or a source for those statistics? It would be interesting to be able to do such a direct comparison, but I'm not aware of any such reliable compilation of cruiser fatalities, rescues at sea, numbers of boats lost, and so on which would make such comparisons meaningful...
Fortunately i can help you out.
RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year

As posted earlier in this thread and great stats too!
From 1980 till now the drop is about 2/3. I.e. 30 years ago there were three times the number of rescues by the coast guard in those statistics provided.

Half as many people dies nowadays as 30 years ago.
Thanks, but I'd suggest that those stats are essentially meaningless if we are talking about - as you initially suggested - about Cruising/Distance Voyaging/Offshore Sailors... Such sailors are bound to represent a very minute percentage of the 800+ "sailors" who died last year, for example... I'll bet more boaters died on inland lakes in landlocked states than died sailing offshore, by a factor of dozens... And, the CG has been touting for years now, how many lives are "saved" annually, simply by the increased use of life jackets...

Not to mention, the number of "responses" or "sorties" that the CG carries out nowadays, is greatly diminished by the incidents responded to by private towing companies such as Sea Tow and Tow Boat US... Those numbers today would likely be mind-blowing, if the CG was still in the business of responding to each and every grounding, or running out of gas, like they once used to be...

For the purposes of this discussion, I think worldwide stats relative to the cruising/voyaging community would be far more instructive... but, my sense is, outside of a very loose compilation by someone like the Cornells at noonsite.com, such stats really don't exist in any meaningful form...
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  #832  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
...One thing for sure is all these PLB and SPOT's, and cell phones with gps make people feel safer while going on adventure. Help is only a push button away...
Thanks to MarkofSeaLife for finding that RITA site. I think you realize by now that the data show that people FEEL safer because they ARE safer. A few may take foolish risks, but that data seem to show that those fools are in the minority, since the incidents are dropping.

I remember when people claimed that seat belts caused drivers to drive more recklessly because of the false security that they provided. The data have also proven that myth to be wrong.

This is why I often ask people to show me the data when they state certain "facts." A close look at the data usually reveals the truth, and sometimes it can be surprising. I think that was the case here.
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Last edited by TakeFive; 11-21-2012 at 12:39 AM.
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  #833  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Thanks, but I'd suggest that those stats are essentially meaningless if we are talking about - as you initially suggested - about Cruising/Distance Voyaging/Offshore Sailors... Such sailors are bound to represent a very minute percentage of the 800+ "sailors" who died last year, for example... I'll bet more boaters died on inland lakes in landlocked states than died sailing offshore, by a factor of dozens... And, the CG has been touting for years now, how many lives are "saved" annually, simply by the increased use of life jackets...

Not to mention, the number of "responses" or "sorties" that the CG carries out nowadays, is greatly diminished by the incidents responded to by private towing companies such as Sea Tow and Tow Boat US... Those numbers today would likely be mind-blowing, if the CG was still in the business of responding to each and every grounding, or running out of gas, like they once used to be...

For the purposes of this discussion, I think worldwide stats relative to the cruising/voyaging community would be far more instructive... but, my sense is, outside of a very loose compilation by someone like the Cornells at noonsite.com, such stats really don't exist in any meaningful form...
Weak arguments, methinks. TowBoatUS's response to groundings and fuel outages are hardly the near death rescues that you guys have been complaining about.
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Last edited by TakeFive; 11-21-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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  #834  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Thanks, but I'd suggest that those stats are essentially meaningless if we are talking about - as you initially suggested - about Cruising/Distance Voyaging/Offshore Sailors... Such sailors are bound to represent a very minute percentage of the 800+ "sailors" who died last year, for example... I'll bet more boaters died on inland lakes in landlocked states than died sailing offshore, by a factor of dozens... And, the CG has been touting for years now, how many lives are "saved" annually, simply by the increased use of life jackets...

Not to mention, the number of "responses" or "sorties" that the CG carries out nowadays, is greatly diminished by the incidents responded to by private towing companies such as Sea Tow and Tow Boat US... Those numbers today would likely be mind-blowing, if the CG was still in the business of responding to each and every grounding, or running out of gas, like they once used to be...

For the purposes of this discussion, I think worldwide stats relative to the cruising/voyaging community would be far more instructive... but, my sense is, outside of a very loose compilation by someone like the Cornells at noonsite.com, such stats really don't exist in any meaningful form...
Weak arguments, methinks. TowBoatUS's response to groundings and fuel outages are hardly the near death rescues that you guys have been complaining about.
Well, you're right about that, of course...

However, they would still qualify as "sorties" if they were still being conducted by the USCG... And, I wouldn't be at all surprised if those totals, if added together, would exceed the numbers for 1985 by a considerable amount...

And, lest anyone assume private towing services only deal with piddly incidents like groundings and fuel outages - consider some of Sea Tow's activities over this past 4th of July weekend, alone:

Quote:

The extended July 4, 2012, holiday has been one of the busiest in recent years for Sea Tow Services International Inc. and its network of Sea Tow captains.

By midway through the holiday week, which runs this year from June 29 to July 8, 2012, Sea Tow already had received more than 2,200 calls for assistance. In addition to these calls, about 20 percent of the Sea Tow network had responded to requests for boat salvages and recoveries through July 4. Call volume to Sea Tow operators was up more than 16% this year over the 2011 holiday period, with the number-one assistance request being for boat tows.

“With another weekend yet to go, the 10-day July 4 holiday has been tremendously busy for our network of skilled U.S. Coast Guard-licensed Sea Tow Captains and crew,” said Capt. Joe Frohnhoefer, Sea Tow Founder and CEO. “We’re proud of the job our captains and staff from coast to coast have been doing to help boaters stay safe.”

Through increased boating activity have come a number of harrowing incidents that serve as strong reminders to all boaters to pay attention and follow safe boating practices on the water. Through the July 4th holiday period to date, Sea Tow captains have responded to multiple emergency calls, including the following incidents:

Capt. Ethan Maass of Sea Tow South Shore in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, rescued 2 boaters on June 29 from an overturned boat in Cape Cod Bay where waves of 2’ to 3’ were washing over the hull. Neither boater was wearing a shirt or a lifejacket. Capt. Maass provided them with both when they boarded his vessel. He called the Coast Guard, which took both boaters back to shore and marked the vessel for recovery.

Sea Tow Central New Jersey was involved in the rescue of 5 adults and 4 children from a sinking boat near the north jetty of Barnegat Inlet on July 1. The Sea Tow crew rescued 3 people, while the Coast Guard picked up the remaining boaters. Sea Tow Central New Jersey also freed the boat from the jetty. Everyone was taken ashore safely and transferred to awaiting emergency medical personnel.

Sea Tow Cape May responded to a July 1 boat fire in the Cape May Canal along with local Avalon Police and New Jersey State Police. A 20’ center console boat burst into flames at the fuel dock at Avalon Marine Center. The boat’s occupants were able to get out, but were taken to the hospital. In an attempt to prevent damage to surrounding boats and the marina, Sea Tow Cape May’s Capt. Scott took the smoking boat in tow, beached it, and helped to control the fire aboard for 45 minutes until the Avalon fire department finally extinguished it with foam. (Live video and photos available upon request.)

Sea Tow Naples, in Florida, responded to the scene of a boat explosion on June 30 where a father and son were seriously injured. The docked boat exploded when the father apparently turned on a wet/dry vac to remove water from the bilge. It is suspected a spark may have ignited gasoline vapors. The father suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns over 75 percent of his body, while his 11-year-old son, who had been assisting, suffered severe burns to the legs.

Sea Tow Miami responded to a July 4 call for help from a Good Samaritan who saw a vessel taking on water and about to sink with 6 adults and 2 children around 8-years-old aboard. Capt. Fernando Sordo headed out only to encounter scores of boats returning from various on-water fireworks shows. Nonetheless, he arrived on scene in about 5 minutes to help the stranded boaters safely board a nearby boater’s vessel. Capt. Sordo pumped out the sinking boat and saved it, then towed the vessel safely to shore.
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  #835  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...And, lest anyone assume private towing services only deal with piddly incidents like groundings and fuel outages - consider some of Sea Tow's activities over this past 4th of July weekend, alone:
Maybe the overwhelming number of calls is the reason TowBoatUS has disconnected their DSC radios.
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  #836  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Thanks to MarkofSeaLife for finding that RITA site. I think you realize by now that the data show that people FEEL safer because they ARE safer. A few may take foolish risks, but that data seem to show that those fools are in the minority, since the incidents are dropping.

I remember when people claimed that seat belts caused drivers to drive more recklessly because of the false security that they provided. The data have also proven that myth to be wrong.
Amen to that

Quote:
This is why I often ask people to show me the data when they state certain "facts." A close look at the data usually reveals the truth, and sometimes it can be surprising. I think that was the case here.

Rick, No wonder. If they did that they couldnt generate the same hysterionics with the real data.

Same reason you shoudnt rush to judgement and over speculate using suspect sources of information. Only a real investigation seperates the wheat (facts) from the chaf ( bulls//t)
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-21-2012 at 03:53 AM.
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  #837  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
I have a question about water temperature:

Somewhere I read that the water temperature was 77degF, elsewhere 25degC. If that's true, what's with the Gumby suits? I would not have thought they'd be needed (or helpful) in those conditions if the water was that warm. What have I missed?
That your life expectancy in 80 degree water is still as little as 2 hours?
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Should we just rescue the guys on the Berring Sea who fish for crab in horrendous conditions?

Dave
Those guys are a professional crew, with professional training. you can bet that MOST of them know CPR and they for sure know how to watch each other's back.

They are also on ships that are a kabillion times stronger, designed from the ground up for that specific task. Those boat are also very well maintained, again by professionals in Seattle and that's all they do. They are staffed with an engineer who knows every sound that thing is supposed to make, and they carry a lot of spare parts.

Since they are licensed up the yin yang, there's really only a hadful of boats out there, and every one of them knows every one of the other captains AND crew personally. They are friends and there is actually a pretty good support system, many of the parts are similar and they will share spares if needed and for sure assist a rescue.

Then on top of that, they are very will equipped with survival equipment that is up to the task.

When they go out, the do it knowing full well that 90% of the time a rescue will simply not be possible no matter what.

And So lastly they watch the weather religiously, and I absolutely guarantee you those boats would have been in port.

but yeah the coast guard should try to rescue them if possible. They aren't out there being idiots for no reason.
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  #839  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
That your life expectancy in 80 degree water is still as little as 2 hours?
While I agree that immersion suits will substantially increase your life expectancy in water below body temp, the above is not correct. One will survive nearly a day in 80 degree water, but drops exponentially as water temp drops. 2hr survival is around the 50 degree mark, depending on conditions. Still the suit provides buoyancy, visibility and extended exposure even further.

If I'm going into 77 degree water in the middle of the ocean with no idea when I'll be rescued. I'll take the suit!!

Here's a USCG presentation on ditching and survival skills. Life expectancy is on page 12.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...5h4y__-so_8mLw
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

On the Rule 62 v Bounty debate:

Similarity...... both Captains appear to be fully responsible for the loss of life among their crew.

Dissimilarity...... The Rule 62 Capt appears to have been attempting to ease the pain of their crew, while the Bounty Capt seems to have caused it.

Irony..... I'm not aware of getting results of an investigation into Rule 62, which would suggest that isn't where the answers are going to come from.
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