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  #851  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by xymotic View Post
T...
but yeah the coast guard should try to rescue them if possible. They aren't out there being idiots for no reason.
Yes, and the coast guard should also save the idiots that should have not been there in first place.

The question is, with the increasing number of idiots that have to be saved, for how much tine the tax payer will remain without saying: Why the well I am paying for idiots to be saved from their own stupidity?

Regards

Paulo
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  #852  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
I am quite sure that ships and fishing boats are not having more accidents but lesser
Based on what? Why do you say this? Whats your metric here?

Quote:
, so if the numbers are increasing that can only mean more deep water pleasure boat accidents
.

If the above is not true then this statement isnt also. I thought the information was that the number was decreasing ???

Very dangerous to post hunches as fact then draw a conclusion from that.
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  #853  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Paulo,
Seems your data shows a lot more rescues are occuring. What is the difference between the red and blue bars, legend is partly cut off.
Regards
Their both from Epirps but with two different frequencies, the blue one uses 121.5MHz and the red ones 406MHz. The first ones had a much lesser range, were smaller and a lot cheaper. They finished with them in 2010. Till then here a coastal boat was only required to have one of those (121.5) while a 406MHz was mandatory for a pleasure boat with a licence to sail more than 200Nm offshore. Since 2009 the 406MHz is mandatory for both licences.

Regards

Paulo
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  #854  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Based on what? Why do you say this? Whats your metric here?

...If the above is not true then this statement isnt also. I thought the information was that the number was decreasing ???

Very dangerous to post hunches as fact then draw a conclusion from that.
Dave, a bigger safety record and lesser accidents with ships and fishing boats is a constant since XV century. On the last 15 years the nanny EC parliament and government bodies has issued a lot of regulations regarding mandatory safety requirements on boats, ships as well as more demanding mandatory qualifications for crews. It has also offered premium money incentives for fishermen to get ride of old boats. Due to all that the number of accidents have significantly diminished here.

I guess that all developed countries have a similar policy in what regards maritime safety and that would be very odd that those policies would not have resulted in less accidents.

I wish you good luck into proving otherwise. With all the money spent in maritime security it would be a front page scandal if you find out that all that money was spent in vain and that actually the accidents were more frequent

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-21-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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  #855  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Paulo,

You keep refering to government bodies issuing mandatory requirements such as insurance and increasing compliance regulations. This must be something specific to Portugal or European countries.

Insurance is not required in the United States in many areas. Government regulations are not as intrusive it appears as in Portugal. It is far more diffocult to enforce laws/ policies in the United States than in a country the size of New Jersey or Florida like Portuagal is. Because of this many of your statements which you write down dont really apply to this country. They are not wrong...because they occur in Portugal, but what is wrong is that you ASSUME they occur everywhere else when in FACT they do not. Maybe we should learn the best practices in Protugal and apply them to the US. Maybe some will not be applied because they only work in a small relm or scope and cannot be enforced in a larger context. Because of this sometimes your frame of reference is not the same as mine or others from the US. That does not make us wrong or mean that US sailors are n ot in their right mind, as it IS NOT mandatory here.

Quote:
I don't know if it is mandatory in the US but nobody in its right mind will cross an Ocean or make a long passage without one
Many coastal sailors here do not have EPIRBS. In fact very few of the sailors I know personally have EPIRBS even though they sail in large bodies of water. ( I have both a boat beacon and personal ones)

In addition you state things like they are facts when in fact they are opinions. When asked for supporting documentation you are throwing it back on the questioner.

For instance you stated--
Quote:
I am quite sure that ships and fishing boats are not having more accidents but lesser, so if the numbers are increasing that can only mean more deep water pleasure boat accidents
.

When asked about how you arrived at this conclusion, whether there were facts supporting your speculation you now want me to disprove it with facts???? Disprove the wild speculation based on wrong assumnptions and reading of the data?

Ok....you stated that you were quite sure there were ships and fishing boats having less accidents...again based on what...your hunch????? Well I am not so sure this is the case. It would stand to reason that there are more ships and fishing boats than in the past, and the fleet gets older each year. more boats in decreasing good condition...so why would there be less accidents or SAR calls. In fact there may be more and oit would stand to reason there are morte, because there is now electronics to do it more.

The trend I find in your posts is that you post like the things you say are fact as opposed to saying IMHO or IMO. You have been challanged a few times on the validity of your facts and throw it back at the challenger and in a number of instances have been shown to have in error. The problem here is that some of the newbies may actually beleive what you are saying is factual which would give them a false sense of security or knowledge.
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  #856  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
....By the way, I thought Bounty's fenders were too small, and they had the wrong brand of anchor.
Now, that right there is funny.
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  #857  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Paulo,

You keep refering to government bodies issuing mandatory requirements such as insurance and increasing compliance regulations. This must be something specific to Portugal or European countries.

... Government regulations are not as intrusive it appears as in Portugal. It is far more diffocult to enforce laws/ policies in the United States than in a country the size of New Jersey or Florida like Portuagal is. Because of this many of your statements which you write down dont really apply to this country. They are not wrong...because they occur in Portugal, but what is wrong is that you ASSUME they occur everywhere else when in FACT they do not. ...
....
Jesus Dave, you get confusing things. I talked about laws issued by the European parliament that are mandatory not only in Portugal but in all members states and that is most of Europe.

I am not talking about insurance but laws that regulate safety requirements and crews requirements in ships and in fishing boats. Do you mean that US has not any? You are certainly kidding and I would bet that in the US those requirements 15 years ago were less demanding then what they are now. Maybe Nolatom or CapAaron can clarify this.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Regarding pleasure boats carrying an epirb offshore that is mandatory by law in almost all (I din't know if it is mandatory in the UK) European countries for more than 10 years. I don't know if it is mandatory in the US but nobody in its right mind will cross an Ocean or make a long passage without one so I guess those numbers are reliable in what regards an increase in accidents.
Actually, there are a few strongly principled voyagers out there who do just that - and they are most certainly of "a right mind", I can assure you... (grin)

I'm thinking of Tim and Pauline Carr, the remarkable couple who've cruised the waters south of the Antarctic Convergence and South Georgia for a decade or more...



Fully cognizant of the extreme risk of sailing such a part of the world, in such a boat, they intentionally decline to carry any means of calling for assistance - no EPIRB, no HF radio - feeling that it is their choice to sail those waters, and that it would be unfair to place any potential rescuer's lives in jeopardy in assisting them, in such a dangerously harsh and remote environment... Such a commitment, I find to be admirable in the highest degree, my respect for these people is boundless...

I've had the great honor of meeting Tim and Pauline on two occasions... First, when they were promoting their book ANTARCTIC OASIS during a fete at the Annapolis YC, and then several years later, when I finally made it to Grytviken myself...

One of my most prized possessions, an inscribed copy of ANTARCTIC OASIS... One of the most beautiful books ever published by cruisers, anyone interested in extreme voyaging/high latitude sailing - or, simply one of the most remarkable places on the planet - owes it to oneself to check it out...


Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-21-2012 at 06:18 PM.
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  #859  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Well, that is a possible attitude. Not one that somebody responsible should take if a crew or a family depends on him.

Anyway, nobody responsible would have sailed the Antartic seas with an old wooden boat like theirs if what was at stake has more then their own lives that they have decided to risk for the sake of adventure and the possibility to explore beautiful places. Given the circumstances and having a perfect notion that they were taken risks that they could avoid it is perfectly understandable that they think it was unreasonable to ask for someone to risk his life to safe them.

Anyway was you have said, a commendable decision and one that many that take unreasonable risks don't share.

The boat:



Regards

Paulo
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  #860  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I am not talking about insurance but laws that regulate safety requirements and crews requirements in ships and in fishing boats. Do you mean that US has not any? You are certainly kidding and I would bet that in the US those requirements 15 years ago were less demanding then what they are now. Maybe Nolatom or CapAaron can clarify this.
Actually, Paulo, they are one and the same thing and yes, the US, does.

There is an overarching requirement for all commercial shipping travelling the waters of the world (including fishing boats), to comply with SOLAS or they simply cannot legally leave port. Part of the regulations require that these vessels be registered by one of the many classification bureaus including Lloyds Register (LR), BV, DNV, RINa and ABS - the American Bureau of Shipping. Each of these "authorities" carry their own set of rules and standards covering everything from hull construction and electrical wiring to the type of anchor they can use.

ABS isn't the toughest out there, but they're not too bad. Previous stuff posted here indicates HMS Bounty was registered with ABS and thus could be expected to meet all of their requirements - including the safety ones - which are all available on-line.
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Last edited by Classic30; 11-21-2012 at 11:51 PM. Reason: Inserted 'legally' - in case anyone gripes..
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