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  #861  
Old 11-21-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...I am quite sure that ships and fishing boats are not having more accidents but lesser, so if the numbers are increasing that can only mean more deep water pleasure boat accidents...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Dave, a bigger safety record and lesser accidents with ships and fishing boats is a constant since XV century. On the last 15 years the nanny EC parliament and government bodies has issued a lot of regulations regarding mandatory safety requirements on boats, ships as well as more demanding mandatory qualifications for crews. It has also offered premium money incentives for fishermen to get ride of old boats. Due to all that the number of accidents have significantly diminished here...
These are weak, desperate arguments. You are "quite sure" that commercial and fishing accidents are down (despite not showing a bit of data to support this). Yet when presented with the RITA data that shows EVERY SINGLE METRIC improving, you claim it's not representative of deep sea recreational accidents. For some unexplained reason, you claim that recreational accidents in deep waters have not benefited from many of the same technological advances that have helped the commercial vessels and inland vessels. Placed in the inept hands of those silly recreational boaters, GPSs, EPIRBs, etc. are lethal weapons that only serve to embolden these incompetents to take foolish risks.

I guess we might as well go rip the seat belts and air bags out of our cars too.
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Old 11-22-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Yet when presented with the RITA data that shows EVERY SINGLE METRIC improving, you claim it's not representative of deep sea recreational accidents. For some unexplained reason, you claim that recreational accidents in deep waters have not benefited from many of the same technological advances that have helped the commercial vessels and inland vessels. Placed in the inept hands of those silly recreational boaters, GPSs, EPIRBs, etc. are lethal weapons that only serve to embolden these incompetents to take foolish risks.
The introduction of such statistical data into this discussion arose out of Mark's original contention that a comparison of such data from the 1970's, and today, would reveal a significant reduction regarding "cruiser-type fatalities"...

I'm sorry, but I'm seeing precious little information in the RITA and other data presented thus far, that would lead one to draw ANY meaningful conclusion about fatalities or accidents applicable to that particular subset of cruising sailors and distance voyagers... Much less, how those numbers may, or may not have, been influenced by technological advances such as GPS, electronic charting, and so on...

Let's look inside the numbers for 2010, for example, as presented by the US Coast Guard in their definitive annual report on recreational boating statistics:

Quote:

In 2010, the Coast Guard counted 4604 accidents that involved 672 deaths

Almost three-fourths of all fatal boating accident victims drowned, and of those, eighty-eight (88) percent were not reported as wearing a life jacket.

Eight out of every ten boaters who drowned were using vessels less than 21 feet in length.

Alcohol use is the leadding contributing factor in fatal boating accidents; it was listed as the leading factor in 19% of the deaths

Of the 672 deaths reported, 326 occurred on bodies of water described as "Lakes, Ponds, Reservoirs, Dams, Gravel Pits"... Another 198 deaths occurred on "Rivers, Streams, Creeks, Swamps, or Bayous"... Only 53 fatalities occurred on the Ocean or Gulf of Mexico

289 deaths were aboard boats or personal watercraft less than 16 feet. Another 295 lives were lost on boats between 16-26 feet... In comparison, only 45 died aboard boats between 26-65 feet...

Sailboats - both auxiliary and sail only - rank pretty far down the list of "Vessel Types" on which fatalities occurred, with a total of 23 deaths...325 lives were lost aboard Open Powerboats, and the categories of Cabin Motorboats, Canoes, Kayaks, Personal Watercraft, Pontoon, and Rowboats all posted higher fatality numbers than Sailboats...

In the category of "Activity Engaged In" at the time of the accident, a grand total of SIX lives were lost during the actual act of SAILING
I would submit that without access to the raw information the CG has in compiling these 'facts', they remain essentially useless for the purposes of extrapolating any meaningful conclusions about "cruiser-type fatalities", when fewer than 1 in 10 transpired upon the ocean or aboard boats over 26 feet, fewer than 1 in 20 took place upon a sailboat of any kind, and fewer than 1 in 100 happened during the operation of a vessel under sail...

People are free to read whatever they want into such a compilation of numbers, of course... But, absent of more relevant data applicable to cruisers and sailors, I think I'll stick with having my opinions regarding Technological Advances and Their Effects informed by what my own eyes and ears have been telling me since the 1970's, at least for the time being... (grin)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-22-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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  #863  
Old 11-22-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
... For some unexplained reason, you claim that recreational accidents in deep waters have not benefited from many of the same technological advances that have helped the commercial vessels and inland vessels. Placed in the inept hands of those silly recreational boaters, GPSs, EPIRBs, etc. are lethal weapons that only serve to embolden these incompetents to take foolish risks.

I guess we might as well go rip the seat belts and air bags out of our cars too.
What I am saying is that an Epirb will make a lot more easy for you to be rescued, it will not give you any help in learning how to sail a boat in bad weather.

What I am saying is that a GPS and a plotter will make it very easy to go from point A to point B, if you get good weather. If you get a storm while under way it will be as difficult as before. On big Ocean crossings that take several weeks even today's technology will not make you able to skip totally bad weather.

What I am saying is that because it is a lot more easy to go to point a to point b, if you got good weather, there are today much more inexperienced sailors attempting to do that thinking that Plotter and GPS will make it easy.

Those sailors if they had no plotter or GPS would have found it very difficult to do that and would have to get some real experience before attempting that.

But when the inexperienced sailors gets bad weather under way (that would not be a problem from an experienced sailor) they will find suddenly that after all it was not so easy and that they realy don't know how to cope with it.

Well, not a big problem, they have an Epirb and someone will pick them and the insurance will pay for the boat. They just have to say that they were making water and sink the boat when they are picked up. It is all very easy and risk free... very easy

Note that I am not saying that more people are dying. The Epirb made a SAR much more easy and effective, I am saying the the number of rescues in deep water have increased in what regards pleasure boats.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 11-22-2012 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 11-22-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Can you imagine the number of deaths in sailboats from Sandy if their were no weather forecasts from this new fangled technology which some makes people take increased risks.

I have yet to see any real PROOF other than a few unsubstantiated opinions that more people are risking their lives because of the use of chart plotters. It is kind of like saying because you have a better chance of surviving an accident with a seatbelt we will all drive faster and risk more.

Statistics show the numbers are down...hard to justify people are taking risks you are speculating on.

I think it's very cavalier to assume because they have EPIRBS they take greater risks. The reason people get them is because thy want to survive accidents. Remember in the US they are not required of recreational boaters. So you relly think people with EPIRBS take a risk f their lives r the boats because they think they can get rescued. You have very little faith or real world knowledge of people to assume this. Especially with data which says the opposite.

Prove you assumption. Find ten people on on Sailnet with EPIBS. Then ask them if they risk their lives or boats more. Go ahead. Lets see if you can o that.

Dave
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Old 11-22-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Statistics show the numbers are down...hard to justify people are taking risks you are speculating on.


Dave
I have only my own stats... In my 4 years and 1 circumnavigation I have not known anyone who has died. I do know four who have lost their boats but survived. These are actually people I know as in I have met. Nor friends of friends. Have heard of some on the Internet, but that's different.
So 4 years no deaths.

Now read any of the circumnavigator books from the 1970's and 80's and each of them knew someone who died cruising.
Lin and Larry Pardy met quite a number including 4 or 5 on a steel hull boat that was lost in the Indian Ocean.

So I think it's gotten much, much safer. And I agree with Dave I am not more reckless because I have an EPIRB, I am LESS reckless because I was anchored in a cyclone when I thought it was smart to risk the cyclone season... Now I all away sail in the correct season... Looking death in the face makes one more careful.
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  #866  
Old 11-22-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

I have yet to see any real PROOF other than a few unsubstantiated opinions that more people are risking their lives because of the use of chart plotters. It is kind of like saying because you have a better chance of surviving an accident with a seatbelt we will all drive faster and risk more.

Statistics show the numbers are down...hard to justify people are taking risks you are speculating on.

I am not deaf or blind and even if there are here many that have sailed much more than me I have been around for some decades and more than 20 000nm. 10 years ago it was very rare to hear a mayday call. In this season I head 5 or 6 and as you now the VHF range is pretty limited.

JonEisberg has a lot more experience and has much more sailing miles and shares the same opinion in what regards this.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Statistics show the numbers are down...


The only statistics I know off that have direct relation with deep sea boat accidents are this ones and show an increase in marine accidents:





Regarding the others that were posted it was already explained that they are not specific to boat accidents, much less to deep water boat accidents. In fact boat accidents (all of them considered) are just a minority. I have post the British Coast guard map that shows on Britain the localization of all SAR. As you can see most happen on the shore not on deep sea. I could not find similar information relating to US coast guard but given the nature of the accidents a US map would probably show a much similar situation.




I am very interested in that new data that makes you say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Statistics show the numbers are down...
As you never speculate I am really interested in seeing that new data that allow you to say that.


This do not seem to makes sense to me and certainly it was not what I meant:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
..So you relly think people with EPIRBS take a risk f their lives r the boats because they think they can get rescued. You have very little faith or real world knowledge of people to assume this. Especially with data which says the opposite. Prove you assumption. Find ten people on on Sailnet with EPIBS. Then ask them if they risk their lives or boats more. Go ahead. Lets see if you can o that.
I use an Epirps and everyone that sails offshore should use one and of course I am more confident going offshore on passage with one than without one, otherwise I would have not spend money on it and I guess this is common to all that use them.

It seems you didn't understood that what I said have essentially nothing to do with Epirps. I will repost the essential to make it clear to you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What I am saying is that an Epirb will make a lot more easy for you to be rescued, it will not give you any help in learning how to sail a boat in bad weather.

What I am saying is that a GPS and a plotter will make it very easy to go from point A to point B, if you get good weather. If you get a storm while under way it will be as difficult as before. On big Ocean crossings that take several weeks even today's technology will not make you able to skip totally bad weather.

What I am saying is that because it is a lot more easy to go to point a to point b, if you got good weather, there are today much more inexperienced sailors attempting to do that thinking that Plotter and GPS will make it easy.

Those sailors if they had no plotter or GPS would have found it very difficult to do that and would have to get some real experience before attempting that.

But when the inexperienced sailors gets bad weather under way (that would not be a problem from an experienced sailor) they will find suddenly that after all it was not so easy and that they realy don't know how to cope with it.
...
What I am saying is that an Epirb or a plotter will not improve your skills in bad weather. You certainly agree with this?

and I am saying that it is much easier to navigate a long passage or to cross an ocean with a GPS (and a plotter) than without GPS. You certainly agree with this too?

When there was no plotters or GPS, to do a long passage, or to cross oceans, it was a lot more difficult and demanded a much more experienced sailor. Many of the sailors that today cross oceans would not have crossed them if they had no GPS, simply because they lacked the knowledge. The knowledge needed to navigate an Ocean without GPS is not an immediate one, as with a plotter, it takes many years to learn and therefore no inexperienced sailor could cross an ocean.

Today I know of guys that go for crossings oceans or even bigger voyages without any significant experience. They do that because a GPS and a plotter makes easy for them the navigation and does not require years of practice that were needed to navigate without GPS or plotter, otherwise they would not be able to navigate.

The plotter, the GPS, makes the life very easy in what regards navigation but would no teach that guy anything about sailing in bad weather. If he was crossing without a GPS, the years of practice needed to do that you have provide him with experience regarding sailing in bad weather too.

No, don't confuse things. I Think the the plotter, the GPS and the Epirb are great and make the live easier to everybody, what I am saying is that modern technology, making navigation easy increased the number of non experienced sailors that attempt to make passages or cross oceans, simply because without GPS you could not navigate an ocean without being experienced and now you can. Certainly you will agree with this too?

That is essentially my point.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-22-2012 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year
Here are the US statistics you fail to address and accept. Read the informnation. Incidents are down YTY, losses are down YTY. This blows a hole in your whole premise that things have gotten worse since 1985 with the advent of GPS. The data doesnt support you arguments.

Quote:
The question is, with the increasing number of idiots that have to be saved, for how much tine the tax payer will remain without saying: Why the well I am paying for idiots to be saved from their own stupidity?
Do you see where you assumption is wrong. Irs not increasing and you havent proved that the % of recreational boaters is increasing within these numbers either

Quote:
The point is that I consider that help makes many to consider that now it is easy to sail to any place and that can induce a false sense of security that leads unprepared sailors to attempt passage that they would not have tried if they had do not that help.
Unprepared sailors...what does that mean. No experience. A sailor who used to sail by charts...me now has the added advantage of having GPS and Chartplottrer to aid my charts. Some would say that makes me a better prepared sailor. Experience is a whole other matter. As you stated a chartplotter doesnt make you understand how to handle difficult weather.

Quote:
I am not deaf or blind and even if there are here many that have sailed much more than me I have been around for some decades and more than 20 000nm. 10 years ago it was very rare to hear a mayday call. In this season I head 5 or 6 and as you now the VHF range is pretty limited.
I respect your experience as well as many others like Jon. I have some also having sailed for over 40 years, two Atlantic crossings, numerous deliveries, trips, and sails from the Mid-Atlantic to the Carribean with well in excess of 40,000 nm. I also sail in an area which has a large number of sailing boats, and havent noticed an increase at all in CG or rescues. In addition I sail to New England up the coast every year. It is my opinion that the average sailor of today is much safer with the new electronics. Excluding power boaters it has been my observation that many sailors supplement their charts and available information with GPS as well as advanced radar today. This added information helps prevent them from sailing into shoals, sailing into danger sailing into oncomming weather. It is much better to sail when caught in fog with radar and a chartplotter tha without like in olden days. That does mean however because I have radar and a chartplotter I will set out into a dangerous area with a false sence of security. It means when mother nature throws unexpected conditions at me that I am better prepared to handle them and therefore less likely to have an accident.

The GPS position although not perfect gives continual updated information which can only be used as an advantage for the average sailor who wants to be more informed rather than less. Sailors for centureies have set out on voyages with little or not enough experience. Many on SN even laud their "dreams" of some people who have dubious credentials making passages to the Carribean frequently.

This is only one part of the equation when making a crossing or coastal voyage and certainly the technical sailing skill is the most important piece.

Quote:
No, don't confuse things. I Think the the plotter, the GPS and the Epirb are great and make the live easier to everybody, what I am saying is that modern technology, making navigation easy increased the number of non experienced sailors that attempt to make passages or cross oceans, simply because without GPS you could not navigate an ocean without being experienced and now you can. Certainly you will agree with this too?
To state that people with limited skills and experience just take off on coastal and crossings just because they have an EPIRB or a chartplotter is an unfounded and illogoical assumption again not based in fact. Everyone is entitled to their opinion though. There are plenty of idiots in the world. There are plenty of "experienced" captains ( Bounty/ Rule 62) who make wrong decisions which cost life or injury, this despite thier previious experience.

Quote:
But when the inexperienced sailors gets bad weather under way (that would not be a problem from an experienced sailor) they will find suddenly that after all it was not so easy and that they realy don't know how to cope with it.

Well, not a big problem, they have an Epirb and someone will pick them and the insurance will pay for the boat. They just have to say that they were making water and sink the boat when they are picked up. It is all very easy and risk free... very easy
You have got to be kidding. You think they go out offshore and have this attitude. You really thinkj they think because they have an EPIRB and insurance they will risk their lives. I dont hang around ANY sailors like this. Point one out to me who posts here on SN. Do you have sailkors like this where you sail in Portugal? If you doi I would stay far far away from them

To me chartplotters, EPIRGS, Weatherfax, Radar are addtional safety measures the modern sailor who travels offshore has today. It doesnt make you a better sailor,,,,just a better informed one. A better informed Captain has more information to make better risk/ reward decisions. Modern technology doesnt add or replace the technical sailing skill or experience of the Captain. It also doesnt take away from that skill either.

Maybe thats why the RITA FACTS and FIGURES show a decrease in incidents and deaths despite and obvious increase in the number of recreational as well as commercial vessels.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-23-2012 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Here are the US statistics you fail to address and accept. Read the informnation. Incidents are down YTY, losses are down YTY. This blows a hole in your whole premise that things have gotten worse since 1985 with the advent of GPS. The data doesnt support you arguments.

Do you see where you assumption is wrong. Irs not increasing and you havent proved that the % of recreational boaters is increasing within these numbers either
...
Maybe thats why the RITA FACTS and FIGURES show a decrease in incidents and deaths despite and obvious increase in the number of recreational as well as commercial vessels.
Jesus Dave, how many times I have to say that this figures that you quote

RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year

regards not only to deep water boat SAR but to all CG rescues and that the huge majority are beach or coastal rescues that has nothing to do with boating much less with deep water boating rescues?

Regards

Paulo
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Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Can you imagine the number of deaths in sailboats from Sandy if their were no weather forecasts from this new fangled technology which some makes people take increased risks.
Well, we can probably safely assume the number would still be at least 2...

Since you mention it, I would have to add what I often see as an undue amount of faith in the accuracy of modern forecasting/weather routing as another double-edged sword that SOMETIMES leads voyagers to take chances that a more prudent sailor would have been unlikely to do decades ago... Unquestionably, the greatly enhanced accuracy of modern forecasting, and the ease of access - both pre-departure, and while underway - that today's voyagers enjoy to weather information has made voyaging FAR safer today than in the past...

However, I still see many sailors today treating stuff like GRIB files as veritable gospel, and sometimes making precious little allowance for an ultimate variance in such forecasts... One only has to look at what happened with last fall's NARC rally between Newport and Bermuda to see an example of this... Those boats left despite an extremely narrow weather window open to them, and when that weather didn't pan out precisely as forecast by the rally's router, much of that fleet got hammered, and the resultant abandonment of boats, and the loss of one life... The resultant finger-pointing at Herb Hilgenberg in the aftermath was very unseemly (especially, given the fact that he had strongly cautioned against a departure from Newport to begin with), but seems to me a clear example of the tendency of some sailors today to look elsewhere for someone to "blame" when a forecast doesn't necessarily pan out as advertised, after having taken the risk of availing themselves of an extremely narrow window... I believe Mark alluded to such a situation as well, regarding a number of boats heading north from the Bahamas in spite of an unsettled weather pattern, obvious by simply reading the clouds, but in the hopes of catching a slight opening some forecasts might have hinted at...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I have yet to see any real PROOF other than a few unsubstantiated opinions that more people are risking their lives because of the use of chart plotters. It is kind of like saying because you have a better chance of surviving an accident with a seatbelt we will all drive faster and risk more.
I'm sorry that you consider my opinions to be "unsubstantiated", as they are simply the results of what I have observed over a period of over 3 decades as a delivery skipper, and roughly 2 decades of cruising aboard my own boat... Be that as it may, I can assure you I am not alone in sharing some of these opinions, however... Would you consider the opinions of people like Don Street, or Steve Pavlidis, "unsubstantiated", as well?

I've tried to explain my reasons for believing why an over-reliance on electronic navigation was likely a major contributing factor in an incident like the RULE 62 tragedy... I'm not going to bother again, I've done so in my first-ever post here on Sailnet, I'd urge you once again to read it:

Sinking of Rule 62

Now, ask yourself the following: Do you think it was commonplace pre-GPS for cruisers not only to attempt, but to actually plan ahead on transiting a reef passage like Belize's Ranguana Pass at night? Do you think Bahamian cruisers would navigate The Devil's Backbone in poor light, or during a modest rage condition, as I've seen them doing nowadays? Even in the late afternoon, sun in their face, completely blind in their ability to read the water, and simply relying upon the GPS track of the path laid down by the pilot from Spanish Wells who took them across to Harbour Island the first time? Do you think it's likely a skipper would have brought a yacht worth well in excess of $1 million through one of the most dangerous and remote reef passages in all of the Bahamas - the entrance to the Columbus Anchorage at Samana Cay - in the dark, without relying upon GPS, and the extremely accurate Explorer Charts? Or, do you simply not consider such a maneuver "risky"? Better yet, do you simply think I'm making these anecdotes up, in support of an otherwise unsubstantiated opinion?

Sorry, but if you believe such risks were routinely being taken by sailors 30 or 40 years, you're dreaming...

I mentioned Steve Pavlidis above, the highly regarded author of some of the best cruising guides available for the Bahamas and Caribbean... I'm not at home at the moment, so I don't have access to my copy, but... In his introduction to his CRUISING GUIDE TO THE NORTHWEST CARIBBEAN, he explains why he has decided to decline to provide anything more than a basic Approach Waypoint to reef passes along the northern shores of places like Guanaja, and Roatan... Basically, because he has come to believe that cruisers are nowadays relying on such information to an undue extent, and are tempted into making such passages through areas where VPR rules only should apply, and eyeball navigation in good light is the ONLY way such passes should be attempted...

He simply wants no further part in contributing to what he considers to be a very dangerous, unseamanlike trend among some cruisers today... Feel free, however, to dismiss his opinion as "unsubstantiated", as well... (grin)

Again, speculation as to why the skipper of RULE 62 attempted to enter the North Bar Channel that night will likely forever be just that - pure speculation... My hypothesis is simply what I consider to be most likely, based upon the above described patterns of behavior I've observed over the years, and the extraordinary amount of trust ALL of us place in our ability to fix our positions today... I simply see a panicked, desperate captain, inexperienced in running inlets or cuts, who believed playing the video game on his chartplotter would lead him to safety... That's my hunch, nothing more...

You, however, have appeared to insist this could not possibly have been the case, and that this particular captain would have entered that cut in any event, whether he had such modern means of navigation at his disposal... I'll ask once again - how do you KNOW that, to state it with such assurance?

30 years ago, that guy would not have been there, to begin with... Modern cruising rallies only came into existence after the advent of GPS, after all. It's hard to me to imagine that a skipper who obviously never mastered the simple art of heaving-to, would have mastered the far more complex art of celestial navigation which would have been required to have gotten him there to begin with...

My scenario presents the actions of an inexperienced, panicked captain, who made a VERY bad decision contrary to the most basic rules of seamanship... To accept your hypothesis, however, one needs to accept that he still would have entered that cut without the modern electronic tools available to him... That, armed only with a sketch chart clearly intended for daylight use only, in good light, and without knowing with any degree of real precision - off a dark, featureless coast bounded by reefs, absent any lit navigational aids whatsoever - either his own position, or the location of that cut... That he would have proceeded, in rage conditions, through such a passage anyway?

Hell, Dave - I'm only suggesting that the guy made an extremely poor decision based upon an inordinate amount of faith in modern technology... What you're suggesting, is akin to a belief that the guy must have been clinically INSANE... (grin)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Statistics show the numbers are down...hard to justify people are taking risks you are speculating on.
Again, I sure wish someone could find statistics addressed specifically to "cruiser-type" fatalities or incidents, and not those inflated with numbers from rescue operations such as these:

lancelot9898 likes this.

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-23-2012 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Would you consider the opinions of people like Don Street, or Steve Pavlidis, "unsubstantiated", as wel

I mentioned Steve Pavlidis ...

He simply wants no further part in contributing to what he considers to be a very dangerous, unseamanlike trend among some cruisers today...


]
I call their opinions a load of old fashioned hogwash.
It's fools like those that use the fear of their own skill falling by technology's wayside to try and instill fear in the up takers of technology.

However as much as they pontificate the less the new generation listens.

Is total twaddle to not look forward, but look back

Those people sound like the Astronomer Royal who stymied the progress of chronometers in the English navy for DECADES. What a up himself moron.

Mark
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