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  #871  
Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Fortunately i can help you out.
RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year

RITA | BTS | Table 2-49: U.S. Coast Guard Search and Rescue Statistics, Fiscal Year




I am actually suprised. I though it would be more too. I guess that shoots the whole electrontics has lerad to more dangerous sailing taking more risks theory and costoing us more money.

Now whos the first one going to say these arent accurate or most events arent recorded?????
I wont argue the numbers. The same statistics running from 1964 to 2011 can be found on the U.S. Coast Guard's website under statistics. If we're talking about use of taxpayer dollars in compensating the CG for rescuing "irresponsible and inexperienced" sailors, then paid subscriptions to private rescue firms would not apply. It is my opinion that distance from land only affects time and cost. If you cast off the lines and sail 5 miles out, you still run the risk of requiring rescue for any number of events. The shorter distance will not elliminate cost/time, only reduce it. From what I gather from looking at the CG statistics, nearly every column shows a downward trend. My interpretation is that boating has become more safe, not less so.

I do agree that boat skippers should know there limitations and not operate on the "press button = get rescued" mindset but for professional mariners or powerboaters to say that sailing offshore in a small boat is burdening the CG and taxpayers needlessly is like the pot calling the kettle black. IMHO, mom and pop sailing to Europe for the first time with all the latest electronics and safety equipment is no more dangerous than the jackass in the cigarette boat flying through a crowded harbor trying to impress the girls or the container ship crossing the same ocean who nearly collides with mom and pop because the watch would rather catch a nap than maintain a proper watch.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post

Quote:
Would you consider the opinions of people like Don Street, or Steve Pavlidis, "unsubstantiated", as wel

I mentioned Steve Pavlidis ...

He simply wants no further part in contributing to what he considers to be a very dangerous, unseamanlike trend among some cruisers today...
I call their opinions a load of old fashioned hogwash.
It's fools like those that use the fear of their own skill falling by technology's wayside to try and instill fear in the up takers of technology.

However as much as they pontificate the less the new generation listens.

Is total twaddle to not look forward, but look back

Those people sound like the Astronomer Royal who stymied the progress of chronometers in the English navy for DECADES. What a up himself moron.

Mark
So, you won't be using STREET'S TRANSATLANTIC CROSSING GUIDE on your passage over to the Med, one can safely presume? Nor any of the Imray-Iolaire charts he's created? Not to mention, his TransAtlantic Chart of Gnomic Projection? Too bad, it sounds pretty useful:

Quote:
It is amazing when looking at a course line of Gnomic Projection: Bermuda to the Azores, if you swing north to pick up the prevailing westerlies you discover you are very close to the southern limit of the ice bergs. On the face of this chart we will be showing the position of distinctive icebergs that have been recorded through the years. One of them almost reached Bermuda and a number of them have drifted down as low as 30°.
Also on this chart are shown the major port to port courses, for going both eastwards and westwards across the Atlantic.

On the back of this chart you will find weather charts for May, June and July; October, November and December. We are only showing those months, as boats should not be trying to cross the Atlantic, sailing to or from the Caribbean outside those months. The weather charts will not only show roses for every 5° square, but it will also show the areas and frequencies where gales are expected, also areas and frequency where waves can be exptected of 12 feet or more. May, June and July weather information will show where the icebergs can be expected, and areas where the growlers have been recorded regularly.
Your post really should be preserved for posterity... Pavlidis and Street, 2 men probably as intimately acquainted with the breadth of the Bahamas and Caribbean as anyone alive, not to mention Street's 40+ years as an insurance broker in the yachting industry... And, as to their use of "technology", you obviously haven't the slightest clue as to how a guy like Steve Pavlidis creates his cruising guide's charts in the first place...

And yet, here we have the opinions of such "fools" deemed "hogwash" by a poster on Sailnet...

Freakin' CLASSIC...
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Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Again, speculation as to why the skipper of RULE 62 attempted to enter the North Bar Channel that night will likely forever be just that - pure speculation... My hypothesis is simply what I consider to be most likely, based upon the above described patterns of behavior I've observed over the years, and the extraordinary amount of trust ALL of us place in our ability to fix our positions today... I simply see a panicked, desperate captain, inexperienced in running inlets or cuts, who believed playing the video game on his chartplotter would lead him to safety... That's my hunch, nothing more...
You, however, have appeared to insist this could not possibly have been the case, and that this particular captain would have entered that cut in any event, whether he had such modern means of navigation at his disposal... I'll ask once again - how do you KNOW that, to state it with such assurance?
Jon- mine is pure speculation just like yours. Nothing more nothing less. I just place less responsibility on the chartplotter than you. The Captain of Rule 62 was not some rube dock socializer and had a fair amount of experience. He had plenty of time to think through his fateful decision. He was respoinsibile for his crew. He had many times to divert and heave to. It was recommended to him to do so by the race organizers in one oif his last radio check ins.

Quote:
To put this in perspective every cruising guide published for the Bahamas says ' these cuts are impassable under 'rage' sea conditions.
Fault is the Captains...not the boat...not the chartplotter....it was the Captains decision just like the Bounty.

Quote:
Since you mention it, I would have to add what I often see as an undue amount of faith in the accuracy of modern forecasting/weather routing as another double-edged sword that SOMETIMES leads voyagers to take chances that a more prudent sailor would have been unlikely to do decades ago... Unquestionably, the greatly enhanced accuracy of modern forecasting, and the ease of access - both pre-departure, and while underway - that today's voyagers enjoy to weather information has made voyaging FAR safer today than in the past...
Totally agree about the two edge sword. But we arent going backwards here. Not using technology

Quote:
My scenario presents the actions of an inexperienced, panicked captain, who made a VERY bad decision contrary to the most basic rules of seamanship... To accept your hypothesis, however, one needs to accept that he still would have entered that cut without the modern electronic tools available to him... That, armed only with a sketch chart clearly intended for daylight use only, in good light, and without knowing with any degree of real precision - off a dark, featureless coast bounded by reefs, absent any lit navigational aids whatsoever - either his own position, or the location of that cut... That he would have proceeded, in rage conditions, through such a passage anyway?

Hell, Dave - I'm only suggesting that the guy made an extremely poor decision based upon an inordinate amount of faith in modern technology... What you're suggesting, is akin to a belief that the guy must have been clinically INSANE... (grin)
He was not thinking clearly all along. The last part of the act at night just piled on all the wrong decisions al along. He would have attempted this during daylight also proabably IMHO. He was driven to get releif ashore.

Thats where the learning comes in on this, not to throw away the chartplotter thats like saying if he didnt have an engine he wouldnt have attempted this. The learning is the demands placed by a tired sick crew on the captain and his inexperience or inability to deal with it in the safe way.

Quote:
I'm sorry that you consider my opinions to be "unsubstantiated", as they are simply the results of what I have observed over a period of over 3 decades as a delivery skipper, and roughly 2 decades of cruising aboard my own boat... Be that as it may, I can assure you I am not alone in sharing some of these opinions
I value you opinions...just dont agree with them in this particular case. You experience is vast and speaks for itself

Quote:
30 years ago, that guy would not have been there, to begin with... Modern cruising rallies only came into existence after the advent of GPS, after all. It's hard to me to imagine that a skipper who obviously never mastered the simple art of heaving-to, would have mastered the far more complex art of celestial navigation which would have been required to have gotten him there to begin with
We cant live in the past. I doubt whether the celes nav I learned 30 years ago would do me much good now as I dont practice it often. Sailors back then with celestial nav were still wrecking their boats on the coast of North carloina. The answer isnt to go back to the old days here. We cant. The answer is to understand the limitations of your experience and how it realtes to the increased information we have now. I dont think my chartplotter gives me an increased sense of infalliabilty or causes me to take more risks, because I depend on it. Thats where I differ from your thinking.

I will bet we run our vessels similarly when offshore. I will bet you dont turn off the chartplotters on the deliveries you do. I will bet you dont chart your course through celestrail navigation 100% of the time. Ill bet you use charts, use the plotter, record your position and rely on your experience. Ill bet you watch the GRIB files anddont think they are more than 60% accurate. Ill bet you have confidence in your past experience to get you through the unknown conditions as well when they are thrown at you. Ill bet that has taught you to be cautious at all costs, because the pentalty for not...is life. I will also bet you like I have made mistake, but we recovered from them...as thats how we learn. I will also bet we wouldnt have decided to do what either the Bounty or Rule62 Capatins did. We would have hove to. We would have not come in at night. We would not have approached a shore during conditions like were preesent day or night.

Its important to know how much experience you have and when you are also overwhelmed by conditions and know you limitations personally, the limits of the boat, and the limits of the crew. This Captain got his false sens eof security not from the chartplotter IMHO, but from over stating his own qualifications to himself. There is also a false sense of security that they are traveling in a Rally. f course he didnt listen to the more experienced ally organizers and went off on his own.

Jon, I value your opinions greatly. They are based on your experiences, just like mine. I enjoy reading them. Much of the time they are congruent. When they are not it doesnt make either of us less than. Just two farts with differing opinions sharing them openly. Others can read and form their opinions from their own experiences or lack of them. Thats why I post mine, to help others as well as have others critiuqe mine so I can learn from them to become a better sailor myself. The better I can become the better decisions I will hopefully make. Like you there are times when I am responsible for others, especially offshore and the best decision will always be the best thought out with as much information input as possible for me.

Dave
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-23-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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  #874  
Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

We cant live in the past. I doubt whether the celes nav I learned 30 years ago would do me much good now as I dont practice it often. Sailors back then with celestial nav were still wrecking their boats on the coast of North carloina. The answer isnt to go back to the old days here. We cant. The answer is to understand the limitations of your experience and how it realtes to the increased information we have now. I dont think my chartplotter gives me an increased sense of infalliabilty or causes me to take more risks, because I depend on it. Thats where I differ from your thinking.
Sorry, but I remain completely baffled by my apparent inability to make myself understood on this matter...

OK, One More Time...

I am not suggesting some sort of wholesale "return to the past", or "throwing away our chartplotters", or any such dismissal of the use of today's technology... Someone, anyone, show me precisely where I have advocated such an approach, please...

I have tried to express that a chartplotter was a likely CONTRIBUTING FACTOR, not the sole CAUSE of this incident... I don't know how many more different ways I can try to make that plain... Still, I think it was likely the decisive factor in the skipper's decision to go against the advice of the rally organizers and others, I simply cannot imagine he would have summoned the nerve to enter that cut, in those conditions, without such means of navigating/piloting at his disposal... On that, I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree...

One last time, let me shout it from the mountaintop: I LOVE MY CHARTPLOTTER!, and all the convenience, confidence and security it affords me... Definitely, some of the best money I've ever spent, almost on a par with my Sailomat windvane...

I have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to return to the Good Old Days, or consign my electronic nav aids to the trash bin - nor am I encouraging anyone else to do so... I'm simply suggesting that this technology is often being MISUSED by many sailors today, that is all...

Even, when it's doing its best to convince me not to believe my own lyin' eyes...

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Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Pavlidis and Street, 2 men probably as intimately acquainted with the breadth of the Bahamas and Caribbean as anyone alive,
WERE. They WERE aquainted.

But time moves on. So has information.
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  #876  
Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
One last time, let me shout it from the mountaintop: I LOVE MY CHARTPLOTTER!, and all the convenience, confidence and security it affords me... ...
I have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to return to the Good Old Days, or consign my electronic nav aids to the trash bin - nor am I encouraging anyone else to do so... I'm simply suggesting that this technology is often being MISUSED by many sailors today, that is all...

Even, when it's doing its best to convince me not to believe my own lyin' eyes...
I guess the problem of following blindingly a plotter has some similarities with people following blindly car GPS information. People believe in that even when obviously the information doesn't make any make sense and that is about what you are talking about. That blind trust that in a car is funny is dangerous on a boat. I will not tell you the many car GPS anecdotes I have saw or new about, I will tell you one with a plotter:

My wife, on the cabin, stars to scream at me saying I am almost hitting a rock. I am outside at the wheel, it is a clear day I am navigating having a look from time to time to the plotter, seeing the marks and dangers and then navigating by eye and compass.

I was a bit frightening with the panic that I could hear in is voice but mostly amazed. I know I am careful. So, because I was navigating with the outside plotter out (to save energy) after looking around and seeing that all the things and marks were where they were supposed to be, including a signalized small isolated rock (100m to port) and because my wife was becoming almost hysterical I went below to see what the hell she was talking about and to calm her.

To my surprise the rock that was 100m to port was almost hitting the boat and I found out it was very difficult to convince my wife that I knew more than the machine. I had to take her to the cockpit to show her where was the rock.

No it is the opposite, she looks at the information on the plotter with a lot of skepticism and is always cheeking to see if everything is right

Information on the plotter is almost always correct but trust blindly on it and the first time it isn't you are done.

I guess that what you are talking about is about this kind of blind confidence even when obviously the plotter was not made for that. It is not a freaking game video and that is why any plotter when you light it up starts with a warning that warns precisely about that blind trust.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
WERE. They WERE aquainted.

But time moves on. So has information.
Wow, you don't have the slightest clue who Steve Pavlidis is, or what he does, do you?

And, if Don Street's knowledge is no longer relevant to the Caribbean, then why do his Imray-Iolaire charts remain the Gold Standard of charts of the Greater and Lesser Antilles today? Which charts have superseded them? Which charts does your own electronic nav software use, that might be so far superior, and left Street's so far in the dust?

From Landfall Navigation's site:

Quote:

Before the development of the Imray-Iolaire chart series, navigation information for the Eastern Caribbean had been generally poor with chart coverage haphazard and no single authority providing complete coverage of harbors and anchorages suitable for cruisers. Most official charts are based on nineteenth century surveys and have too little updated information. The Imray-Iolaire series meets the growing demand for a standardized series of charts for the Caribbean Sea.

For this Caribbean series, Imray has enlisted the aid of the well known Donald Street Jr. who has spent over thirty years chartering, cruising and exploring in Iolaire, his 93 year old engineless wooden Yawl. He has taken his unique knowledge of the passages, harbors, and anchorages, from Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgins in the north to the Venezuelan coast in the south, and applied it to these charts. His cruising guides are the definitive text for cruisers in the area.
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  #878  
Old 11-23-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
guess the problem of following blindingly a plotter has some similarities with people following blindly car GPS information. People believe in that even when obviously the information doesn't make any make sense and that is about what you are talking about. That blind trust that in a car is funny is dangerous on a boat.PCP
Of course. This goes without saying. Common sense.o That IS why the warning appears when it turns on. There is a little sign on side mirrors in car reminding someone everythime that objects appear further.... So what.

Most of us know not to trust the chartplotter blindly....We are not children, we can read....most of us have imnstances where they have been off....so what, we know that........ Next issue.

Jon,

Soooooo,,,what causes a Captain of a boat, with more than just casual dockside experience to run toward a shallow narrow channel, in 40 knot winds opposing tide conditions, large ocean swells and breaking waves, experienced for hours on end, 2 members of the crew too sick to stand watch, pleading with the captain, broken autopilot, obvious rage conditions during daylight hours. Why the chartplotter of course.

Sooooo what causes a Captain, 500 ton Master liscence, 30 years offshore experience to leave port in a wooden boat used as a movie prop and head toward a developing hurricane, new fangled pumps necessary to keep the boat dewatered ( no old fashioned manual pumps), differing stories on maintainence condition of the vessel. Why the pumps of course were contributory to the boats sinking. They gave the Captain a slase sense of security he would be able to keep the boat dewatered. The pumps were a contributory cause.

Thats your argument

In both cases it is the Captain who exercised poor judgement in putting his boat in compromising positions in the first place. Walbridge on Bounty for sailing into a hurricane, and Ross on Rule62 for sailing toward the Bahamas. We know Ross had been tried to be dissuaded from doing this, he continued on for a day and a half putting his boat further and further in jeopardy when he could have turned away or hove to. Walbridgre could have sought port or shelter but kept sailing on. Even IF and Jon must assume this IF Ross;s chartplotter was working and IFhe used it to try and navigate at night. It is clear in broad daylight for hours he was fine with the decision to run the rage to allieviate his crews...and maybe even his self imposed desperate condition. At any time, any time he could have just hove to and mitigated the motion on the boat and waited for the rage or conditions to eventually subside. The Captain placed the boat near the Bahamas where the danger was awaiting, just like the Captain sailing close to the hurricane where the danger was waiting. Similarly they are both help responsible for the actions. The use of the chartplotter if we beleive it worked to run at night was just a side reference as he never would have been there had the Capatin not run the boat to the shallow Bahamas and shore.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Something that was not posted here. I don't know how I have missed it since it was published on Sail-World, a web page that I normally read. Well, better late than never:

Quote:

"Michael Tougias, an expert on deadly sea tragedies the author of five nonfiction books chronicling heroic and dramatic sea incidents, was interviewed on an American television show about his work.

The Herald Sun reported that when asked by the announcer if any ships would venture out in Hurricane Sandy, his answer was, ‘No way,’' and he continued, 'Only large ships like aircraft carriers can manage that kind of storm in that area. I was so surprised when the news flashed about the Bounty.'

'You don’t want to be anywhere near the merging currents in a storm,' Tougias was reported as saying. 'There are a whole lot of reasons not to be out there.'

He said the Bounty’s captain and owner had ample notice of the impending hurricane and its scope, Tougias said.

'I think he had a schedule and was trying to outmaneuver the storm,' Tougias said. "


Sail-World.com : Search for HMS Bounty's Captain called off - investigation begun
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Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
The Herald Sun reported that when asked by the announcer if any ships would venture out in Hurricane Sandy, his answer was, ‘No way,’' and he continued, 'Only large ships like aircraft carriers can manage that kind of storm in that area. I was so surprised when the news flashed about the Bounty.'
The US Navy sent many ships out to sea from Norfolk smaller than aircraft carriers

Quote:

'I think he had a schedule and was trying to outmaneuver the storm,' Tougias said. "
This quote is conjecture obviously a nd should be discounted


Two mistakes in one

Anyway we all agree the Captain should not have sailed.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-24-2012 at 12:52 AM.
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