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  #881  
Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The US Navy sent many ships out to sea from Norfolk smaller than aircraft carriers
Yes, but it should be noted that he said 'manage a storm' not ride out, and the navy ships that put to sea:

**LEFT** (at 20 or 30 knots)

They didn't head to Hatteras
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Last edited by xymotic; 11-24-2012 at 03:58 PM.
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  #882  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Jon,

Soooooo,,,what causes a Captain of a boat, with more than just casual dockside experience to run toward a shallow narrow channel, in 40 knot winds opposing tide conditions, large ocean swells and breaking waves, experienced for hours on end, 2 members of the crew too sick to stand watch, pleading with the captain, broken autopilot, obvious rage conditions during daylight hours. Why the chartplotter of course.

...

Thats your argument
Right from the get-go, I have referred to the RULE 62 tragedy as a "GPS-enabled incident"... Check my initial post on the matter again, should you still have any doubts...

Sinking of Rule 62

Unless my understanding of the English language is fundamentally flawed, "enabling" is not the equivalent of "causation"...

Quote:

en·able
transitive verb \i-ˈnā-bəl\
en·ableden·abling
Definition of ENABLE
1
a : to provide with the means or opportunity - training that enables people to earn a living
b : to make possible, practical, or easy - a deal that would enable passage of a new law
c : to cause to operate - software that enables the keyboard

Synonyms: allow, empower, let, permit
We can only speculate what CAUSED Ross to attempt to enter that cut that night... I suspect it was a combination of many factors - panic, exhaustion, desperation, inexperience, a profound ignorance of the risks involved, an overwhelming desire to simply get himself and his crew off that damn boat which trumped all reason, lack of mastery of the technique of heaving-to, a total disregard for the most elemental caution against entering unknown harbors at night, sheer stupidity, the unawareness of other relatively nearby safe havens, an intense craving for a Bahamian rum drink or ice cream cone, or who knows what else...

All I am suggesting is that it was the extraordinary precision and accuracy which electronic charting would have afforded him, likely CONTRIBUTED to his decision to proceed, and that an attempt to enter that cut in those conditions made any sense whatsoever...

I always endeavor to express myself in these discussions clearly, and with precision.... Again, I invite you - or anyone else - to show me something I've written which implies I believe the chartplotter aboard RULE 62 to be a direct CAUSE of that tragedy, or would absolve the captain of any responsibility in the slightest degree... If I believed a chartplotter was the "cause" of the tragedy, I would have said so... Thus, my use of the word "enabled", instead...

Where we appear to disagree, is in your belief that he would have entered that cut in any event, he was so determined to do so he would have done so even without the help of the pinpoint accuracy of a GPS, or today's state of the art e-charts... I simply doubt that, and believe he would not have been emboldened to attempt that cut - especially, at night - without those particular tools to enable him to do so... That's just my hunch, and I think it's one that is reasonably substantiated by what I've witnessed over the years, but we'll never know for certain, of course...

It's been fun, Dave - but I'm gonna have to call it quits on this issue... If I haven't been able to make myself plainly understood by now, chances are I'll never be able to do so...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-24-2012 at 08:17 AM.
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  #883  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

JOn .

He was on a mission, He made the bad decision when he entered turned the boat toward the Bahamas into shallow water against advice from the rally organizers. He had plenty of time to heave to, continue on and instead against advice and logic he chose to head for shore and shelter.

Wether you want to quibble over the word enable or cause makes no difference really. Decisions get traced back to the Captain. You asked for an example of implication and you statement below for instance I believe you give a mixed message here when you embolden the Cause word. Unless you are using invisable ink I see the word caused not enabled and I see it emboldened in caps.

Quote:
We can only speculate what CAUSED Ross to attempt to enter that cut that night -
In the spirit of carefully posting these read differently, especially from a person with your obvious credentials

Maybe you meant to write it this way

We can only SPECULATE what enabled Ross to attempt to enter the cut that night

Quote:
I always endeavor to express myself in these discussions clearly, and with precision.... Again, I invite you - or anyone else - to show me something I've written which implies I believe the chartplotter aboard RULE 62 to be a direct CAUSE of that tragedy, or would absolve the captain of any responsibility in the slightest degree... If I believed a chartplotter was the "cause" of the tragedy, I would have said so... Thus, my use of the word "enabled", instead...
I agree this thread has run its course. There are other tragedies happening for the SN comment on. All we can do now is wait for the results of the inquirey which will give us insight into any of the factors which enabled/ caused the sinking of the Bounty once she arrived ibn the teeth of the storm
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-24-2012 at 08:33 AM.
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  #884  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
.......All we can do now is wait for the results of the inquirey which will give us insight into any of the factors which enabled/ caused the sinking of the Bounty once she arrived ibn the teeth of the storm
Other than for trivial value to know about her final hours, I don't see how that information will shed any light on this tragedy. I would like to see the results of their interviews on the departure decision.
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  #885  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Other than for trivial value to know about her final hours, I don't see how that information will shed any light on this tragedy. I would like to see the results of their interviews on the departure decision.
For the same reason in your industry they reconstruct the final minutes of an airplane crash. There could be things which should have been inspected or design flaws which became apparent. Maybe there will be an enlightenment as to why they chose not to seek shelter as they sailed down the coast. These need to come out in the inquirey as maybe there will be a tightening of inspection. Why did the pumps fail? What about the backups. etc.

Actually I dont really care why they left, unless they were forced to by the company or the port master. It has already been determined here that the Captain is at fault for leaving. Why each of the 15 crew members individual decisions why they left is for soap operas or some future movie. I am sure their individual lawyers have prepped them well what to say by now.
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  #886  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The US Navy sent many ships out to sea from Norfolk smaller than aircraft carriers


This quote is conjecture obviously a nd should be discounted


Two mistakes in one

....
Dave, all opinions are conjectures and its value depends mostly on the credibility of the one that is issuing them. The fact that I am posting it don't means necessarily that I am agreeing with it but that I found it relevant. he opinion of Michael Tougias was relevant for a TV news channel and to the editor of Sail-World and I think it is relevant here.

I guess you did not understood what Michael Tougias said :

'Only large ships like aircraft carriers can manage that kind of storm in that area. I was so surprised when the news flashed about the Bounty.'

For managing the storm he is not talking about running away from it, sailing in the opposite direction of the Bounty, but about sailing it, like the Bounty had tried to do.

He is talking about managing a storm (that's what the Bounty tried to do), not about running away from it, I mean like have done all those ships US Navy sent out to sea from Norfolk (and that have sailed on the opposite direction, regarding the Bounty's course).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-24-2012 at 09:44 AM.
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  #887  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
....Why each of the 15 crew members individual decisions why they left is for soap operas or some future movie. I am sure their individual lawyers have prepped them well what to say by now.
The USCG would have interviewed them as they returned to land, so I doubt they were lawyered up already.

The scenario, however, is the learnng opportunity in my opinion. Why did they go, why did they agree, we're they fully processing the danger, etc. None will change ultimate responsibility, but will allow others to see it coming.

If poor maintenance ultimately caused the pump to fail, it won't impact the responsibility or teach anything about why they should not have found themselves exposed to that failure or expose the USCG to have to rescue them in those conditions.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
JOn .

He was on a mission, He made the bad decision when he entered turned the boat toward the Bahamas into shallow water against advice from the rally organizers. He had plenty of time to heave to, continue on and instead against advice and logic he chose to head for shore and shelter.

Wether you want to quibble over the word enable or cause makes no difference really. Decisions get traced back to the Captain.
Once again, I am in complete agreement on that, and I'd be curious to see whatever I've written that woud indicate I believe otherwise...

I disagree that his decision to divert to the Bahamas was fundamentally flawed, I don't necessarily see anything "bad" in that... Seems obvious he was saddled with a crew that wasn't up to completing the trip to Tortola, from his position along the rhumb line, the Bahamas were the obvious bail-out option... Once the decision to abandon the rally was taken, seems like a sensible choice to me, and I'm a bit mystified why the rally organizers might have thought it was inherently foolhardy...

Of course, the decision to make for a landfall in the Abacos, however, was the fateful one... That turned out to be an astoundingly poor decision. If he had simply laid a course for the NE Providence Channel, and after only a few more hours of sailing, he could have tucked in behind Hole in the Wall, for instance, for a bit of rest... Then, proceeded for the easy, safe approach to a place like Spanish Wells, or on to Nassau... I wish we had access to some transcript (no such thing likely exists, of course) of the radio communications between the organizers and RULE 62, it would be interesting to see whether such considerations were at any point made clear to him...

Of course, it's another one of my "hunches" that the likely lack of having a large scale paper chart spread out before him in the planning stages of his landfall, instead of panning and zooming all over a computer or plotter screen one foot square, might have contributed mightily to his apparent blindness to The Bigger Picture, and those far better options... (grin)
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-24-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Oh, I've tried to avoid a prolonged discussion over how the NTSB investigates aircraft accidents. Most are aware of the high profile investigations, where the NTSB has near actors and actresses as spokespeople. However, many investigations simply end in "pilot error" or assign a most likely cause, since there may not be anyone to interview. Something to the effect of "pilot failed to maintain control of aircraft". No kidding. Official investigations are not necessarily the end all. I will say, what they can learn from wreckage is amazing.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
..

He was on a mission, He made the bad decision when he entered turned the boat toward the Bahamas into shallow water against advice from the rally organizers. He had plenty of time to heave to, continue on and instead against advice and logic he chose to head for shore and shelter.

...
The point here is that it is being discussed is that he had done it at night. All of us that were used to navigate at night without a plotter know that today we do navigation at night with a plotter that would not have attempted without one and I don't think this is speculation but a fact that will be recognized by all of us.

I am not talking about a risk passage in bad weather like the one that was attempted by Rule 62 Captain but about passages in good weather on less complicated or dangerous spots (difficult navigation stuff) that even so would only be attempted in the old days by daylight, at least by a prudent sailor.

It seems to me very unlikely that any sailor would have attempted a narrow and difficult passage at night without the accuracy of a GPS. For that it would be necessary that the Rule 62 Captain was not only imprudent but absolutely mad.

Even if we can do now, with a plotter, with a reasonable safety at night some passages that would be unreasonably dangerous without a GPS (and I am talking about difficult navigation not sailing through dangerous spots) all will agree that even so they would be even safer with a plotter at day light.

That is specially true to a passage that could, given the conditions, be unreasonable to make even at day light with a plotter, like the one that was made at night by Rule 62.

If he would have waited for the day he would have seen better the sea conditions and we do not know if he would have attempted that passage then or even if he had attempted it he would have been able to make it.

We only know that he had attempted it by night having has reference the boat position on his plotter. I guess that we can safely say that if he had not a plotter it would be almost certain that he would not have attempted that at night.

Nobody is saying that navigation with a plotter is unsafe than navigation without a plotter (quite the contrary), just that the blind confidence on a plotter is a dangerous thing. Our eyes are still the best navigation instrument and at night they work very badly.

That is what Jon is saying when using the word "enable" to refer to the role a plotter and blind confidence of a Captain on it had on that accident.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-24-2012 at 09:49 AM.
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