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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Vessels Lost, Missing, or in Danger
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  #891  
Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

My father, a marine diesel mechanic (who is much more qualified to be the engineer on that ship than the actual "engineer" was) suspects it was the first real weather they'd been in in a long time. The waves stirred their tanks and clogged their fuel filters, which killed the generator and engines. After that it isn't long until the pump uses up whatever battery power they have left. Pump may have even been clogged by stuff in the bilge that got stirred up by the waves.

Probably could've saved the ship with a couple fuel filter changes.
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  #892  
Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
The waves stirred their tanks and clogged their fuel filters, which killed the generator and engines. ...

Probably could've saved the ship with a couple fuel filter changes.
They still would have come a cropper. The channel they were heading for was 4 meters deep with 10 meter waves. metric or imperial those figures done work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
.. That turned out to be an astoundingly poor decision. If he had simply laid a course for the NE Providence Channel, and after only a few more hours of sailing, he could have tucked in behind Hole in the Wall, for instance, for a bit of rest...
Finally a portion of a post of yours i agree with.
It was only an extra 30 nms to go to be protected for the waves, that's what was making them sick.
I made the suggestion on some forum at the time, but no one seemed to see how significant it was. 30 miles to safety, but a seasick crew, added to tiredness fuzzed up their brains.

Of course nothing to do with paper charts or ECN. A fool using either will get into strife.


Mark
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Last edited by MarkofSeaLife; 11-24-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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  #893  
Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
All of us that were used to navigate at night without a plotter know that today we do navigation at night with a plotter that would not have attempted without one-PCP.
No my friend not ALL of us do that. That is highly risky and quite frankly sets a bad example for any newbie here. You and others have intimated that chartplotters are not accurate. In fact you related an experience about a rock with your wife, that only sight or chart reconning would identify.

Why would you
Quote:
do navigation at night with a plotter that would not have attempted without one
when it is not accurate. Why would you risk you life, the people with you and your boat doing something at night using a piece of equipemnt you do not trust and has shown to be inaccurate by your own eyes? Why would you go ANYWHERE at night you couldnt wouldnt attempt without the chartplotter?

You are confusing, on one hand you point out we rely on the chartplotters and shouldnt, then on the other hand state you go places at night you wouldnt have attempted without a chartplotter. ( Isnt this waht JOn is claiming the Captain Ross did)

Our modern sophisticated chartplotter is and aide to navigating not the navigator. I would go no where, at night or in the day that I would put at risk my safety if the chartplotter was wrong or it failed while using. I do NOT trust it by itself implicitly

Captain Ross tuned away from the Rally in daylight,
Captain Ross headed for the North Bar Channel in daylight,
Captian Ross was warned by Rally organizers not to go on there,
Captain Ross chose to come in this entrance vs heaving to or taking a different passage which was more protected.
Captain Ross CHOSE to enter the Rage area in daylight ( sound familiar with sailing into a hurricane)

He had made his decision and he was going to carry it through. He had eschewed all information and recommendations from others, he violated a number of common sense rules like coming in an unfamiliar inlet at night ( chartplotter or not), as well as sailing directly into a rage, as well as heading for shallow rougher water ( like Hatteras) in the midst of 50 knott wibnds and opposing current and sea. It is the human who is at fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
.. That turned out to be an astoundingly poor decision. If he had simply laid a course for the NE Providence Channel, and after only a few more hours of sailing, he could have tucked in behind Hole in the Wall, for instance, for a bit of rest...
So true, you are 100% right here. The chartplotter didnt coerce or enable him to choose the North Channel He screwed up, 30 more miles as Mark and you have said hed have been in less wave action and easier seas. He made the wrong choice..he headed for the North Channel....kind of like Captain Walbridge did...he headed into danger instead of away from it.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-24-2012 at 04:23 PM.
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  #894  
Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I guess the problem of following blindingly a plotter has some similarities with people following blindly car GPS information. People believe in that even when obviously the information doesn't make any make sense and that is about what you are talking about. That blind trust that in a car is funny is dangerous on a boat. I will not tell you the many car GPS anecdotes I have saw or new about, I will tell you one with a plotter:

My wife, on the cabin, stars to scream at me saying I am almost hitting a rock. I am outside at the wheel, it is a clear day I am navigating having a look from time to time to the plotter, seeing the marks and dangers and then navigating by eye and compass.

I was a bit frightening with the panic that I could hear in is voice but mostly amazed. I know I am careful. So, because I was navigating with the outside plotter out (to save energy) after looking around and seeing that all the things and marks were where they were supposed to be, including a signalized small isolated rock (100m to port) and because my wife was becoming almost hysterical I went below to see what the hell she was talking about and to calm her.

To my surprise the rock that was 100m to port was almost hitting the boat and I found out it was very difficult to convince my wife that I knew more than the machine. I had to take her to the cockpit to show her where was the rock.

No it is the opposite, she looks at the information on the plotter with a lot of skepticism and is always cheeking to see if everything is right ..
You seem to use this as an example of how a chartplotter makes you less safe. But the real irony here is your own example demonstrates that the chartplotter made you MORE safe, not LESS. You had a false alarm because the chartplotter had a 100 meter error. So as a result, you double-checked to make sure your ded reckoning position was correct. You had two sources of information that weren't agreeing, so you gave it some additional attention to resolve the discrepancy. This made you safer, not less safe.

Traditional navigational techniques using DR are not perfect either. In many cases, the chartplotter is far more precise than DR, especially if the landmarks that you are using are miles away. It's pretty simple trigonometry to show that an error of 5 degrees on your pelorus gives a 193 meter error on a landmark that's 1 nautical mile away. So you might just want to keep that chartplotter on!

I suspect that anybody who has ever graded the ASA 105 exam can tell you that there is an allowed range of correct answers to all the plotting test questions, because of the fact that parallel rules and dividers have some slop in their tolerances. On some charts, the width of your pencil is more than 100 meters!

Blind trust in any one method can lead to catastrophic results. More information is better, especially information that is accurate over 99% of the time (like GPS).
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  #895  
Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Blind trust in any one method can lead to catastrophic results. More information is better, especially information that is accurate over 99% of the time (like GPS). TakeFive
Totally agree
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  #896  
Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

.
I am not sure if I understand you but anyway what you say makes no sense. I don't know if you used to navigate at night without a plotter and if you would do so I don't understand what is your doubt. As I hope you know navigation without a plotter use triangulation and azimuths to find your position in a chart.

At night many times you simply lack references to get a good fix and even navigation lights on the shore can be difficult to sort out from the middle of other lights and that could on coastal navigation make things difficult if you have to avoid some rocks or any other obstacles. Sometimes the precision you could get sometimes regarding your position was rather poor and I am talking about several miles. That could make things dangerous and therefore it would be better to wait for day light.

With a plotter sometimes you get an error (that is due not to the GPS imprecision put mostly to different chart projections systems that not always are a match to the one used in the chart on the plotter) but is never an error superior to a mile and most of the time is an error not superior to 300m. If you can navigate giving always a berth of more than one mile regarding your position on the plotter regarding any obstacle (rocks) you will not have any problem. Off course that does not dispense the corroboration of the plotter information by the information given by the different navigation lights.

So yes, today with a plotter I can do with a sufficient safety margin night navigation that without a plotter (given the bigger incertitude) I would not have attempted.

I am really baffled that you cannot understand this. Do you sail and cruise at night?

Regards

Paulo
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Old 11-24-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
You seem to use this as an example of how a chartplotter makes you less safe. But the real irony here is your own example demonstrates that the chartplotter made you MORE safe, not LESS. You had a false alarm because the chartplotter had a 100 meter error. So as a result, you double-checked to make sure your ded reckoning position was correct. You had two sources of information that weren't agreeing, so you gave it some additional attention to resolve the discrepancy. This made you safer, not less safe.
I don't understand your logic. I am talking about guys that have a blind faith on the absolute precision of the plotter, like the captain of rule 62. If I was one of those and if I was navigating at night and blindingly trusted the plotter without giving a big berth to its information and was passing 100m at starboard of that rock I would have hit it.

I am not saying that the plotter is not very useful. See my previous post. I am saying that the plotter can be very dangerous for the ones that trust blindly its information and I am quite sure the Captain of Rule 62 is not the only one.

Regards

Paulo
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  #898  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
They still would have come a cropper. The channel they were heading for was 4 meters deep with 10 meter waves. metric or imperial those figures done work.

Mark
You guys are so far off topic you don't even recognize it when you see it. I was clearly talking about the Bounty, not Rule 62.
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  #899  
Old 11-25-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
My father, a marine diesel mechanic (who is much more qualified to be the engineer on that ship than the actual "engineer" was) suspects it was the first real weather they'd been in in a long time. The waves stirred their tanks and clogged their fuel filters, which killed the generator and engines. After that it isn't long until the pump uses up whatever battery power they have left. Pump may have even been clogged by stuff in the bilge that got stirred up by the waves.

Probably could've saved the ship with a couple fuel filter changes.
I think it's a bit unlikely that a greater reserve of fuel filters would have prevented the loss of the BOUNTY. They would have been experiencing conditions sufficient to stir up their tanks well in advance of their final day. Certainly possible, of course, but this is one of those things an official investigation should be able to clarify...

I think your supposition about debris in the bilge, however, appears to be a very likely possibility... Especially, since the BOUNTY had recently undergone major re-planking and other hull work in Boothbay... There was an interesting post on Sailing Anarchy that speaks to this issue:

Quote:
I talked to someone who used to crew on the Bounty. He explained the pump system to me, and I may not get it exactly right. The pumps and engine room were essentially on the same level, and there were no bulkheads that would keep water from sloshing from one end of the bilge to the other.

Additionally, he said that any time they did a yard revolution involving any kind of plank work or ribs, they would spend days cleaning out the culch that accumulated from working with lumber - sawdust, scrap wood, everything. It took a full crew to do it, it was horrible work, and more often than not they wouldn't get it all and the first time they took on significant water (which was whenever they went out, really), the pumps would clog. they'd clean that out, and then they'd run the pumps again until they clogged again.

He said the last line of defense was a diesel pump with I believe a 4" pipe located just below the weather deck that was capable of dewatering the entire ship if necessary - however that depended on it getting started in the first place.

The Official Trash the Bounty thread . leave the Sandy thread for stor - Page 5 - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums
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Old 11-25-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't understand your logic. I am talking about guys that have a blind faith on the absolute precision of the plotter, like the captain of rule 62. If I was one of those and if I was navigating at night and blindingly trusted the plotter without giving a big berth to its information and was passing 100m at starboard of that rock I would have hit it.

I am not saying that the plotter is not very useful. See my previous post. I am saying that the plotter can be very dangerous for the ones that trust blindly its information and I am quite sure the Captain of Rule 62 is not the only one.

Regards

Paulo
This goes back to the well known principle of never trusting one nav device. I have noticed errors in chartplotters that would have me navigating on pavement. As noted above, this is due to many different factors. In reality, all navigation relies on a number of inputs. The plotter is a great tool and added to the other inputs, certainly makes life easier but I would not blindly trust it, especially at night when even more attention needs to be paid to light patterns, atmosphere, depth, and even sound.
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