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  #901  
Old 11-25-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
.. That turned out to be an astoundingly poor decision. If he had simply laid a course for the NE Providence Channel, and after only a few more hours of sailing, he could have tucked in behind Hole in the Wall, for instance, for a bit of rest...
Finally a portion of a post of yours i agree with.
It was only an extra 30 nms to go to be protected for the waves, that's what was making them sick.
I made the suggestion on some forum at the time, but no one seemed to see how significant it was. 30 miles to safety, but a seasick crew, added to tiredness fuzzed up their brains.

Of course nothing to do with paper charts or ECN. A fool using either will get into strife.


Mark
I'm merely asserted - in an effort to identify the likely causes of the obvious failure of Ross to appreciate the bigger picture - that the lack of a larger paper chart at his disposal could have been a reasonable, probable explanation... I'm certainly not alone in viewing the ability of plotters and e-charts alone to appreciate The Big Picture as one of their principal limitations... Again, try to remember that not every user of such things may not be as adept with a cursor or mouse as you are... (grin)

I don't see how anyone who was not aboard that boat, or has no knowledge of the tools available to the skipper or what he was thinking, can so unequivocally and categorically eliminate such a scenario/explanation as being within the realm of possibility...

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-25-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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  #902  
Old 11-25-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, we can probably safely assume the number would still be at least 2...


Now, ask yourself the following: Do you think it was commonplace pre-GPS for cruisers not only to attempt, but to actually plan ahead on transiting a reef passage like Belize's Ranguana Pass at night? Do you think Bahamian cruisers would navigate The Devil's Backbone in poor light, or during a modest rage condition, as I've seen them doing nowadays? Even in the late afternoon, sun in their face, completely blind in their ability to read the water, and simply relying upon the GPS track of the path laid down by the pilot from Spanish Wells who took them across to Harbour Island the first time? Do you think it's likely a skipper would have brought a yacht worth well in excess of $1 million through one of the most dangerous and remote reef passages in all of the Bahamas - the entrance to the Columbus Anchorage at Samana Cay - in the dark, without relying upon GPS, and the extremely accurate Explorer Charts? Or, do you simply not consider such a maneuver "risky"? Better yet, do you simply think I'm making these anecdotes up, in support of an otherwise unsubstantiated opinion?

Sorry, but if you believe such risks were routinely being taken by sailors 30 or 40 years, you're dreaming...
There is more at work than just the dependence on electronic navigation and weather services. It seems to me that there are more million dollar rigs on the water now then back before dead reckoning was the only nav method. There are just more people with money to burn who decide they are going to buy an expensive boat and be sailors. Many, not all, are really not suited to an activity like sailing. What works in a cubicle does not translate to what works on a sailboat. Judgement, respect for the sea, mechanical ability in a pinch; experience can't be bought. Sailing goes back to some basic skills with which many executive sailors have no connection. They pay their insurance premium and off they go. We get stuck with the bill eventually in increased insurance costs. So, stupid decisions to try to navigate tricky passages in crappy conditions are probably more directly related to hubris and money than to reliance on plotters.
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  #903  
Old 11-25-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
There is more at work than just the dependence on electronic navigation and weather services. It seems to me that there are more million dollar rigs on the water now then back before dead reckoning was the only nav method. There are just more people with money to burn who decide they are going to buy an expensive boat and be sailors. Many, not all, are really not suited to an activity like sailing. What works in a cubicle does not translate to what works on a sailboat. Judgement, respect for the sea, mechanical ability in a pinch; experience can't be bought. Sailing goes back to some basic skills with which many executive sailors have no connection. ... So, stupid decisions to try to navigate tricky passages in crappy conditions are probably more directly related to hubris and money than to reliance on plotters.
This has nothing to do with money but with experience and knowledge. You can make stupid mistakes with a million dollars boat or with a 30 000 dollars boat. Today chartplotters are not expensive and all that navigate for a significant time have them.

Regarding knowledge in what regards navigation you can learn it by yourself but the learning is much slower and incomplete than if you do it on a formal way with a teacher that is a professional Captain that has many years of experience. That Captain had also formal teaching and he had benefited from all knowledge that had been recovered from the experience of thousands of experienced sea Captains. Of course, experience on the sea is also necessary but having a formal good preparation is a big help.

What take five said to professional sailors apply also to pleasure Captains:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent.

In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence.

It is absurd to suggest that licenses and training have little correlation with competence. It is simply not true. The correlation is not 100% perfect, but it is a very strong correlation.
Regards

Paulo
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Old 11-25-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

at the end of this post on page91 of this thread " Chef to Sail "wrote:


Quote:
There are other tragedies happening for the SN comment on. All we can do now is wait for the results of the inquirey which will give us insight into any of the factors which enabled/ caused the sinking of the Bounty once she arrived ibn the teeth of the storm
.....

I agree..afterall...someone died a couple days ago on a commercial snorkel charter out of pompano beach as they tried to enter Hillsboro inlet...alot less background and drama here than a antique sailing ship or a frantic dash for safety from a sailboat in a race/rally...but one dead and almost two dozen in the water on a nice afternoon in Pompano...started a thread on this topic..it likely won't get near 91 pages long hopefully but it's just as devastating to all involved and as worthy of scrutiny as more publicized accidents...alot of us or our families have probably been on one these "super-pontoon" type tourist boats ...

P.S.-You may now carry on.. almost to a hundred pages here afterall!!

The Medical Examiner on Friday ruled the Thanksgiving Day death of a diver aboard a capsized boat a drowning. - Page 2 - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

Last edited by souljour2000; 11-25-2012 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 11-25-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This has nothing to do with money but with experience and knowledge. You can make stupid mistakes with a million dollars boat or with a 30 000 dollars boat. Today chartplotters are not expensive and all that navigate for a significant time have them.

Regarding knowledge in what regards navigation you can learn it by yourself but the learning is much slower and incomplete than if you do it on a formal way with a teacher that is a professional Captain that has many years of experience. That Captain had also formal teaching and he had benefited from all knowledge that had been recovered from the experience of thousands of experienced sea Captains. Of course, experience on the sea is also necessary but having a formal good preparation is a big help.

What take five said to professional sailors apply also to pleasure Captains:



Regards

Paulo
I can only relate what I've seen in the fields of first responder, construction, and teaching. Getting the certificate proves only one thing: that you've been presented with information and have passed some sort of test(s). From many examples, I say that these courses of study do NOT have a direct correlation to ability in the real world. This is true in any of these fields and, I suspect, ALL fields. The real test is in the actual work situation. If anything, these "qualification" procedures are often very misleading and downright dangerous in some cases (as when applied to doctors, first responders, etc.) Not only that but they often become politicized, watered down by academics, unions, lawyers, etc, until they have NO connection with anything actually useful. Maybe they serve to filter out some of those who have made a mistake in choosing a field of endeavor, but not many. I'm not going to go into anecdotes but I have many.

After presentation of the information and whatever testing, RETENTION of useful knowledge is largely absent except on a very shallow level. Retention only comes from repeated, real-life usage: experience. The experience needs to be under the long-term tutelage of people with experience-on the job. These people usually do not want to be teachers because they can actually do the job. We used to have apprentice programs but academic bullies have all but eliminated them. The ones that still exist often stagnate and become ineffective because not much formal attention is given to them.

I will concede that the knowledge and information aspect of performing a job is, in the first place, essential but jumping through a maze of hoops is not necessary to acquire basic factual information. If you can read, you can learn the basic info. "Certification" programs, not all of them, often are expedited or lose sight of what is actually important. Schools that essentially print degrees on demand for anyone who can spell their name are becoming commonplace.
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  #906  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
I can only relate what I've seen in the fields of first responder, construction, and teaching. Getting the certificate proves only one thing: that you've been presented with information and have passed some sort of test(s). From many examples, I say that these courses of study do NOT have a direct correlation to ability in the real world. This is true in any of these fields and, I suspect, ALL fields. ...
I don't agree with you and I think that what you say does not have much sense. If it was so we would have not trained and qualified professional engineers, Doctors, Airplanes pilots, Architects or Sea Captains. We would only have handy men in all professions.

I think Takefive nailed it when he said: "Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent. In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence".

Regards

Paulo
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't agree with you and I think that what you say does not have much sense. If it was so we would have not trained and qualified professional engineers, Doctors, Airplanes pilots, Architects or Sea Captains. We would only have handy men in all professions.

I think Takefive nailed it when he said: "Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent. In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence".

Regards

Paulo
OK, let's just not agree. Next topic
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

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Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
OK, let's just not agree. Next topic
That's Ok with me

Let me Clarify: Regarding the knowledge you have to have I do not defend that you have to take courses to get it.

what I defend is that you have to show that you have the knowledge. You should have the right to do the same tests as the ones that had a formal training are required to do to have a licence. If you pass the tests and the sea prove you have as right at your certification as they have. Of course this, even for someone that has sea experience, implies a lot of study and a lot of books to learn but it is not impossible.

I had all my licences taken that way till Coastal Captain (200Nm out of shore) and there are several other mandatory licences till you reach that one. I just inscribed myself for the examination (with all the other guys that had taken a full course) made the tests, passed them and made the sea proves as well. Only for an unlimited licence I have taken a full course.

I defend the right of anybody to be tested for a certification, course or not, but I also defend the necessity of confirmation that any guy that exercises a profession or an activity that demands special knowledge and involves risks to others to be submitted to testing that confirms at least that he has the needed knowledge.

Of course as TakeFive has said: "Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent. In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence".

Regards

Paulo



Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-25-2012 at 12:16 PM.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Certification in a field is not a gauentee of competancy. It does mean however you have the ability to 1- take a standardized test and 2- regurgitate the information the certifying agency has deemed important on the test. It does not have any correllation to retaining other than the day of the test what was on the test. It does not necessarily reflect what is needed in real life situations therefore the material is not always relevant. Some times these tests are created to satisfy a governement agency, to make money for the industry, or keep too many people from being able to compete for jobs. This does not minimize the importantce of testing. Many certifications also have an experiencial component connected with them.

In the marine industry all this testing doesnt assure that the people certified make proper decisions 100% of the time. We are humans, that is not possible. The alternative not to have or require testing is not palatable though. The Bounty Captain was tested and certified, so was the Titanic. Mistakes and errors in judgement will always be made.

We also know that many decisions are made from common sense. Having a degree or certification we all have found doesnt mean a person pocesses common sense. Check out the professional Captains of the Bounty and Titanic

All this does is maximize the potential to make a correct decision, not gauerentee it.
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Certification in a field is not a gauentee of competancy. ....

All this does is maximize the potential to make a correct decision, not gauerentee it.
Yes I agree with that. It is just what I am saying. As I have said in my opinion Takefive nailed already the subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Having a certification does not guarantee full competence in any field. However, a person who lacks the ability or persistence to pass the certification requirements is almost certainly not fully competent.

In other words, certification is a necessary but not sufficient condition for competence.

It is absurd to suggest that licenses and training have little correlation with competence. It is simply not true. The correlation is not 100% perfect, but it is a very strong correlation.
Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 11-25-2012 at 01:51 PM.
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