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  #931  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Jon, you can't turn back the clock.
Yeah, I keep forgetting - this is the 21st century, and now a Kinder, Gentler Ocean will graciously forgive such stowage of a tender on passage... (grin)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post

Quote:
Hanging around the docks for the week or so prior to the departure of something like the 1500 can be an eye-opening experience, for some... Seeing arriving crew dragging freakin' SUITCASES down the docks towards a Hylas 56, it becomes pretty apparent some of these folks likely don't have a CLUE what they might be in for...JonEisenberg
Hell thats probably what the clipper ship capitains and crew were saying in Southhampton England as people boarded the tourist ship called the Titanic,
Well, I'm not sure of the relevance of the comparison between being one of 6 crewmembers for an ocean passage on a 56' yacht, and being one of a couple of thousand passengers aboard an ocean liner...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
John I dont completely disagree with what you are saying, but how do you propose changing what you see?
Well, people learning to first sail aboard more sensibly sized boats might be a start...

Among the boats I delivered this year were a Gozzard 44, and a Cabo Rico 42, to new owners... In each case, they were the FIRST boat - of any size or kind - that either one had ever owned...

On the CR, I could hardly see around the plotter... (grin)


Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-26-2012 at 01:12 AM.
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  #932  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Damn Jon,

Almost looks like mine without the side wings. My plotter is 9 inch for my getting older eyes.



I agree John. Actually I always tease my wife that her very first boat was a C&C 35. We married 7 years ago and I have had bher for 15 years. That most of us learned on sailfish, hobie, lightening and progressed to bigger keelboats. She started with a large boat. In teaching her and with people on their first
boats all the electronics dependence can not be always a good thing as you have pointed out before, which I generally agree with.

Where we may part ways is that it is fact and here to stay so it doesnt do well and you wont be able to convince especially the younger sailors who have been brought up with computers and gagets to make things easier by only speaking against it. There has to be a positive way to convince them to embrace the old with the new vs the old and the new. They are a great second reference point. And we have to get them to understand their limitation...just like a chart has them, This concept for them will be difficult.

Annecdotally I will tell you that I learned with charts, crossed the Atlantic with charts twice, and have embraced the new electronics as a great addition to the other knowledge. When teaching my wife about reading charts , not sure its because of her lack of spacial orientation in life ( cars maps included) or just her, but she struggled. She struggled understanding course plotting, current vectors etc. When I taught her using a chartplotter she learned it right away and could go back and apply it to charts. There are many others like this also.

I love those Gozzards. Not sure about the set up with the moveable settees in the salon whether I would like that, but the 44 is certainly big enough wed never have to sleep there. Do they sail well ? Never been on one except at the Annapolis Show.
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Last edited by chef2sail; 11-26-2012 at 01:36 AM.
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  #933  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...Barksdale also shoots a hole into the theory that the Captain was some...
I don't see much of a hole.

Quote:
...A hole...
We've all agreed, including you, that he is fully responsible for setting out toward a hurricane and the unnecessary death of an inexperienced crew member. You pick the descriptor. This one will stick for many.

Quote:
...unqualified,...
A reasonable debate about whether passing a test and spending time on the water to get your ticket makes you as qualified as all who did the same. Personally, I think 17 years on the same vessel made him complacent and his ticket, despite how hard it is to achieve, didn't stop him from making an extraordinarily bad decision.

Quote:
...blowhard...
Now this is just in irrefutable evidence. Whether we are to believe what he said on the Youtube video or not, he was being a blowhard. Deck doesn't move in 70ft waves, chases hurricanes, no such thing as bad weather.... It's in his own recorded words.

Quote:
...who was followed blindly by a crew of cultists like who followed Jim Jones as was speculated by some in this thread...
The analogy is crude and emotional, but the concept is sound. It is in evidence that they knew of the incoming storm. Either by reputation or action, he had to give the crew the confidence to take it on. Its clearly too far to suggest he was on a suicide mission, but the culpability of a strong leader to get people to do things they would never do on their own is fair in my book.

I thought you declared this thread closed a few posts back.
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  #934  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
I thought you declared this thread closed a few posts back- Minniewaska
New informatuion with Barksdale interbiew
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  #935  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
boats all the electronics dependence can not be always a good thing as you have pointed out before, which I generally agree with.

Where we may part ways is that it is fact and here to stay so it doesnt do well and you wont be able to convince especially the younger sailors who have been brought up with computers and gagets to make things easier by only speaking against it. There has to be a positive way to convince them to embrace the old with the new vs the old and the new. They are a great second reference point. And we have to get them to understand their limitation...just like a chart has them, This concept for them will be difficult.
I am in complete agreement... So, why do you continue to insist that I "am ONLY speaking against" modern technology???

How many more times need I post something like this to convince you otherwise?

HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I love those Gozzards. Not sure about the set up with the moveable settees in the salon whether I would like that, but the 44 is certainly big enough wed never have to sleep there. Do they sail well ? Never been on one except at the Annapolis Show.
I don't know, I've yet to actually sail one... This one was a motor job to the Great Lakes the entire way:



My guess is that they need quite a bit of breeze to go, and can't imagine it would have been a very stellar performer to windward...

Thing that bugged me most about that boat, was the island galley/sink arrangement... I have never seen a galley aboard that size of boat, with such an amazing lack of usable counter space... Virtually the only surface of any size was either over the stove, or refrigerator lids... Even finding a space to dry dishes was problematic, one of the dumbest things I've ever seen, I'd imagine it would drive someone who actually likes to cook insane...

All I ever need to do is make coffee or a sandwich, and that galley arrangement even drove me nuts...
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  #936  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
If, OTOH, you're looking for speculation of experienced sailors who have some keen insights, this is your place. But part of that speculation will have to include chartplotters and other navigational tools, since their speculation includes technology as enabling factors in this and other accidents.
I'm really perplexed why some appear to so strenuously reject the simple notion that today's technology might have been a contributing factor to an incident such as that involving RULE 62...

A cruiser today who chooses to transit a reef passage such as Ranguana in Belize at night, for example... If it is not GPS and a set of waypoints that "enables" him to do so, what IS it, then? The charts remain the same, still based upon hopelessly outdated British Admiralty surveys, and no navigational aids have been added...

A bigger set of balls than the cruiser of a few decades ago? Or, a smaller brain? Pure, dumb luck?

Or, is it only a successful, uneventful such passage which should be considered to have rightfully been "enabled" by electronic navigation? But, in the event it would have gone pear-shaped, and the boat wound up on the reef instead, the navigator's reliance on GPS should therefore be disqualified as a contributing factor to such a mishap?

When we routinely see sailors now taking chances in waters where "visual piloting rules only" previously applied, then exactly what is it - if not modern technology - that is allowing them to do so?

Last edited by JonEisberg; 11-26-2012 at 10:16 AM.
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  #937  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

hen we routinely see sailors now taking chances in waters where "visual piloting rules only" previously applied, then exactly what is it - if not modern technology - that is allowing them to do so?

A stupid sense of false security that money buys them. Sorry, just back form the Nepal Himalaya, and saw all the stupid cruiser tricks that the dirt dwellers want to apply to high altitude mountaineering....Great money for you to lead the moneyed into the cruising world, hope you won't have to be with them too long, geezzz what a horrible endeavor you have to endure to make your crust.
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  #938  
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Damn Jon,

Almost looks like mine without the side wings. My plotter is 9 inch for my getting older eyes.



I agree John. Actually I always tease my wife that her very first boat was a C&C 35. We married 7 years ago and I have had bher for 15 years. That most of us learned on sailfish, hobie, lightening and progressed to bigger keelboats. She started with a large boat. In teaching her and with people on their first
boats all the electronics dependence can not be always a good thing as you have pointed out before, which I generally agree with.

Where we may part ways is that it is fact and here to stay so it doesnt do well and you wont be able to convince especially the younger sailors who have been brought up with computers and gagets to make things easier by only speaking against it. There has to be a positive way to convince them to embrace the old with the new vs the old and the new. They are a great second reference point. And we have to get them to understand their limitation...just like a chart has them, This concept for them will be difficult.

Annecdotally I will tell you that I learned with charts, crossed the Atlantic with charts twice, and have embraced the new electronics as a great addition to the other knowledge. When teaching my wife about reading charts , not sure its because of her lack of spacial orientation in life ( cars maps included) or just her, but she struggled. She struggled understanding course plotting, current vectors etc. When I taught her using a chartplotter she learned it right away and could go back and apply it to charts. There are many others like this also.

I love those Gozzards. Not sure about the set up with the moveable settees in the salon whether I would like that, but the 44 is certainly big enough wed never have to sleep there. Do they sail well ? Never been on one except at the Annapolis Show.
Do you guys ever looks the water? what a horrible console to look at. Did you ever leave the office?
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  #939  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Bottled water?
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  #940  
Old 11-26-2012
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Re: HMS Bounty in trouble...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
...If, OTOH, you're looking for speculation of experienced sailors who have some keen insights, this is your place. But part of that speculation will have to include chartplotters and other navigational tools, since their speculation includes technology as enabling factors in this and other accidents...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm really perplexed why some appear to so strenuously reject the simple notion that today's technology might have been a contributing factor to an incident such as that involving RULE 62...
Good grief, you're really too sensitive about this.

I did not "strenuously reject" your "simple notion". I actually agreed with it. But there are no hard facts on Rule 62 accident, since no formal investigation was done. Therefore: simple notion = speculation

So I acknowledged your "keen insights" in my message, but apparently that's not good enough? I'm "sipping the Kool Aid," but you want me to drink it from a fire hose?

I completely, 100% buy into " the simple notion that today's technology might have been a contributing factor to an incident such as that involving RULE 62." But your choice of the word "might" is revealing. By using the word "might," I think you subconsciously acknowledged that your notion is speculation. So deep down, I think you agree with me more than you're willing to admit.
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Last edited by TakeFive; 11-26-2012 at 10:52 AM.
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