Another America�s Cup entry destroyed
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Tanley
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
So a top notch sailor, a gold medal winner in the Olympics will not get another chance? There are a few of them actually. Russel Cuuntz won't get another chance? James Spithill won't get another chance? Does really ring true does it?
Many of these men will be in the Volvo and other dangerous Races testing the edge. And again, and again.
It's what they do. They are not coerced by anyone else. Its not like the Bounty crew who had no experience, or if they said no wouldn't get another ride. They do it by choice. Their choice. They are driven by their own competition from within. They are men with free thought not chauffeurs or little boys.
God bless Simpson. God bless the Five sailors who have died in the Volvo races, They died reaching for the goals the set for themselves. God bless the wife and children he left behind.
This isn't about amusing us. These men race and compete from within and would do it if no one watched. It's their nature.
So a top notch sailor, a gold medal winner in the Olympics will not get another chance? There are a few of them actually. Russel Cuuntz won't get another chance? James Spithill won't get another chance? Does really ring true does it?
Many of these men will be in the Volvo and other dangerous Races testing the edge. And again, and again.
It's what they do. They are not coerced by anyone else. Its not like the Bounty crew who had no experience, or if they said no wouldn't get another ride. They do it by choice. Their choice. They are driven by their own competition from within. They are men with free thought not chauffeurs or little boys.
God bless Simpson. God bless the Five sailors who have died in the Volvo races, They died reaching for the goals the set for themselves. God bless the wife and children he left behind.
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
Webb Chiles... 5 solo circumnavigations, first American to sail around Cape Horn alone, sailed halfway around the world in an 18' open boat... Hardly a timid soul:
![Image]()
Yeah, here's some more 'sour grapes' from two of the bravest, most accomplished sailors on the planet:
Webb Chiles... 5 solo circumnavigations, first American to sail around Cape Horn alone, sailed halfway around the world in an 18' open boat... Hardly a timid soul:
And Grant Dalton... 5 Whitbread/Volvo Races, skippered the maxi cat CLUB MED to victory in The Race in 2001, setting the record for the fastest circumnavigation at the time... Managing Director of Team New Zealand, here's what he said after ORACLE's capsize last November:
Again, that's from the man who skippered this 120-footer RTW in 62 days, via the Great Capes and Southern Ocean...
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
If there weren't any cameras and there wasn't any prestige- these guys would be out there doing this.
It's as much about pushing yourself as far as you can go- as much as it is about pushing the equipment and changing the game. Men make the challenge so they can rise to it. Are the AC72s ready? Hell no. They aren't robust enough- they can't be adequately depowered we all know that.
Again- all the better reason to make these guys run the boats they chose in the venue they chose. Don't soften the challenge- nothing is gained from that- keep the bar that they set for themselves- and be amazed at what you see come out of it.
Chrisake- let the human spirit soar- let theseem rise to the occasion- tame the beasts- and demonstrate again the indomitable will to adapt and overcome.
It's certainly no for everyone. As for workplace safety- risk assessment, risk management- if your nine to five fits into the scope of what OSHA thinks you should do, and you aren't factoring in concepts like ground and air medevac, ammo resupply, vehicle crossroads, most likely and most dangerous courses of enemy action- so on and so forth- if you don't have team leaders doing PCC's and squad leaders performing PCIs- I you don't do rehearsals and rock drills- if you don't train to the point that your actions become a collective action rapidly executed without applying a deliberate decision-making process- we probably don't have much to discuss when comes to "safety in the workplace"
Because you just haven't had to lay it on the line.
And no- I'm not going to discuss my myriad adventuresssss- outside if those outlined earlier.
Minne- yes it was your statement re abandonment of safety considerations etc. I get distracted by broad brush strokes that leave myriad streaks and gaps in the overall finish...
And the simple fact remains- the guys who are the sole subject matter experts are by and large staying on the boats.
Only the second fatality in 130 years? Remarkable. Why aren't we celebrating that track record- It should be held aloft as an example to other sports.
Anyone remember the opening sequence of the right stuff? Talking about the sound barrier and the bell x1- it wound up with this quote "men came to the high deserts of California to ride it- they were called test pilots, and no one knew there names"
It's not about fame. It's not about money. It's just that voice inside your head that tells you to hurry up when there's someone walking a few steps ahead or behind you. Of you don't have it- you'll never understand but it won't let you rest. It says "hear that- they're right behind you- maybe catching up- maybe not- maybe they just think you can't get away" he says "they are right there- you have to pass them- or they'll think you can't". It says "jeez dude- it's a hill- just run up it- what's the problem- why aren't you trying?"
So if you don't hear that voice everyday- pushing you every step turning your every waking moment into a contest with yourself- because your fellow man isn't always there to compete against- you might be a happy and content soul- but that's all you'll ever be. And you'll never grasp what makes a man willing to go out and leave it all out on the field- holding nothing back for the return trip.
To me that is just impossibly bland.
If there weren't any cameras and there wasn't any prestige- these guys would be out there doing this.
It's as much about pushing yourself as far as you can go- as much as it is about pushing the equipment and changing the game. Men make the challenge so they can rise to it. Are the AC72s ready? Hell no. They aren't robust enough- they can't be adequately depowered we all know that.
Again- all the better reason to make these guys run the boats they chose in the venue they chose. Don't soften the challenge- nothing is gained from that- keep the bar that they set for themselves- and be amazed at what you see come out of it.
Chrisake- let the human spirit soar- let theseem rise to the occasion- tame the beasts- and demonstrate again the indomitable will to adapt and overcome.
It's certainly no for everyone. As for workplace safety- risk assessment, risk management- if your nine to five fits into the scope of what OSHA thinks you should do, and you aren't factoring in concepts like ground and air medevac, ammo resupply, vehicle crossroads, most likely and most dangerous courses of enemy action- so on and so forth- if you don't have team leaders doing PCC's and squad leaders performing PCIs- I you don't do rehearsals and rock drills- if you don't train to the point that your actions become a collective action rapidly executed without applying a deliberate decision-making process- we probably don't have much to discuss when comes to "safety in the workplace"
Because you just haven't had to lay it on the line.
And no- I'm not going to discuss my myriad adventuresssss- outside if those outlined earlier.
Minne- yes it was your statement re abandonment of safety considerations etc. I get distracted by broad brush strokes that leave myriad streaks and gaps in the overall finish...
And the simple fact remains- the guys who are the sole subject matter experts are by and large staying on the boats.
Only the second fatality in 130 years? Remarkable. Why aren't we celebrating that track record- It should be held aloft as an example to other sports.
Anyone remember the opening sequence of the right stuff? Talking about the sound barrier and the bell x1- it wound up with this quote "men came to the high deserts of California to ride it- they were called test pilots, and no one knew there names"
It's not about fame. It's not about money. It's just that voice inside your head that tells you to hurry up when there's someone walking a few steps ahead or behind you. Of you don't have it- you'll never understand but it won't let you rest. It says "hear that- they're right behind you- maybe catching up- maybe not- maybe they just think you can't get away" he says "they are right there- you have to pass them- or they'll think you can't". It says "jeez dude- it's a hill- just run up it- what's the problem- why aren't you trying?"
So if you don't hear that voice everyday- pushing you every step turning your every waking moment into a contest with yourself- because your fellow man isn't always there to compete against- you might be a happy and content soul- but that's all you'll ever be. And you'll never grasp what makes a man willing to go out and leave it all out on the field- holding nothing back for the return trip.
To me that is just impossibly bland.
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
Take away the cameras, and the prestige - these logos would disappear overnight... Corporations are not in the habit of spending millions to plaster their brand on the proverbial tree falling in a forest, with nobody around to hear the sound...
![Image]()
Hmmm, I don't think so... Who would pay the bills?
Take away the cameras, and the prestige - these logos would disappear overnight... Corporations are not in the habit of spending millions to plaster their brand on the proverbial tree falling in a forest, with nobody around to hear the sound...
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
If its not there- if that's not the attitude- it sure comes off as such. Now don't get me wrong- I'm really enjoying the discussion and a lot of good points have been brought up- and we are already seeing developments that to an extent had been discussed here- so it's not without merit. Just passionate on my views about the dangers of taming the human spirit
Probably just pasteing this in anywhere else in this thread where I feel I should respond- as I just really don't have much else to say about it. What alot of y'all need to feel- is clearly not the same as what these guys need to feel- be it the owners or the crews- and so you act in a tremendously condescending fashion toward it. You sound like PTA moms. I often feel this is an arrogance born of insecurity- sort of the self inflated notion that if someone does sailing its because you were a bit rash with your advice in sailnet- sort of the opposite of false bravado. There is this prevalent attitude that you need to save the rest of sailing world from itself.
If its not there- if that's not the attitude- it sure comes off as such. Now don't get me wrong- I'm really enjoying the discussion and a lot of good points have been brought up- and we are already seeing developments that to an extent had been discussed here- so it's not without merit. Just passionate on my views about the dangers of taming the human spirit
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
AC has for more than a century been at the cutting edge of sailing - this is not a club sport.
Personally, I can't wait to see these boats do battle. I have watched ETNZ and Luna Rosa sailing in our local harbor and it is breathtaking to see them sailing that fast that a 400hp chase boat can't catch them.
Bring it on!
If watching one-design racing is your thing, go down to your nearest sailing club, you'll probably see it there.
AC has for more than a century been at the cutting edge of sailing - this is not a club sport.
Personally, I can't wait to see these boats do battle. I have watched ETNZ and Luna Rosa sailing in our local harbor and it is breathtaking to see them sailing that fast that a 400hp chase boat can't catch them.
Bring it on!
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
That reminds me I had decided to boycott the next summer Olympics when the IOC canceled Wrestling in favor of Rythmic Gymnastics.
I think OSHA should have a special division to regulate all international sporting events. I might have to miss the Olympics following the new "Sporting Safety" division takes over.
That reminds me I had decided to boycott the next summer Olympics when the IOC canceled Wrestling in favor of Rythmic Gymnastics.
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
Would you not agree that these boats have shifted the paradigm to the point these guys are somewhat out of their experience zone?
Yes, 25 knots on any of our boats is not that big a deal, then again we won't be doing 35-40 knots in that wind.
I think its more accurate to say, turning any sailboat that's doing 35-40 knots is going to be terrifying.
I'm not trying to say I think these boats are SAFE. I'm saying, that racing is dangerous, and racing the fastest, most cutting edge boats against other similar boats is about as dangerous as it gets. I expect these teams will be taking a harder look at what they can do to quickly de-power to reduce the chances of this happening again. NASCAR didn't become as safe as it currently is overnight, and a lot of drivers paid for those safety lessons in blood. What I am saying is, that's the nature of the beast.
I share the opinion that this format is ever going to make AC racing mainstream.
Jon,Yeah, here's some more 'sour grapes' from two of the bravest, most accomplished sailors on the planet:
Webb Chiles... 5 solo circumnavigations, first American to sail around Cape Horn alone, sailed halfway around the world in an 18' open boat... Hardly a timid soul:
And Grant Dalton... 5 Whitbread/Volvo Races, skippered the maxi cat CLUB MED to victory in The Race in 2001, setting the record for the fastest circumnavigation at the time... Managing Director of Team New Zealand, here's what he said after ORACLE's capsize last November:
Again, that's from the man who skippered this 120-footer RTW in 62 days, via the Great Capes and Southern Ocean...
![Image]()
Would you not agree that these boats have shifted the paradigm to the point these guys are somewhat out of their experience zone?
Yes, 25 knots on any of our boats is not that big a deal, then again we won't be doing 35-40 knots in that wind.
I think its more accurate to say, turning any sailboat that's doing 35-40 knots is going to be terrifying.
I'm not trying to say I think these boats are SAFE. I'm saying, that racing is dangerous, and racing the fastest, most cutting edge boats against other similar boats is about as dangerous as it gets. I expect these teams will be taking a harder look at what they can do to quickly de-power to reduce the chances of this happening again. NASCAR didn't become as safe as it currently is overnight, and a lot of drivers paid for those safety lessons in blood. What I am saying is, that's the nature of the beast.
I share the opinion that this format is ever going to make AC racing mainstream.
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
Agree with Jon on this one. We've watched AC in light air off S.D. and heavy air more then once. These boats are fascinating but a distortion - a very small segment- of what sailing is about. It has become a ninch race. Much like the boarders and planers racing in ditches to get flat water while they go for speed records. Like the difference between the salt flats and general road racing. This is not to take away from the technology, skill and courage of this endeavor but it makes for high light films not not engagement for the general public.
Agree with Jon on this one. We've watched AC in light air off S.D. and heavy air more then once. These boats are fascinating but a distortion - a very small segment- of what sailing is about. It has become a ninch race. Much like the boarders and planers racing in ditches to get flat water while they go for speed records. Like the difference between the salt flats and general road racing. This is not to take away from the technology, skill and courage of this endeavor but it makes for high light films not not engagement for the general public.
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
And formula 1 is a small segment of what driving a car is about
And so on.
These guys are pushing the edge
And the Tour de France is a very small segment of what bike riders are about
And formula 1 is a small segment of what driving a car is about
And so on.
These guys are pushing the edge
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
I'm trying to think of another sport where some major teams and/or high profile professionals are saying their event or sport has become too dangerous. That's distinct from someone who may think its time to reduce danger they've been accepting all along. This is the case of professionals in the sport saying this new evolution has gone too far too fast, without sufficient engineering around safety.
The discussion has never been about whether there should be any danger, but some continually try to paint the other safer point of view into that corner. It's about whether they have gone beyond the cutting edge, into the bleeding edge.
On another point, this is the cache resume race of a lifetime. No other matches it, IMO. Not every crew member will have multiple shots at it. I would be curious how many crew do repeat. Maybe that's changing, now that they're paid. The few I've met over the years only got in one race. I may try to track one down and see what he thinks of this new format and the risks his younger colleagues are taking.
I'm trying to think of another sport where some major teams and/or high profile professionals are saying their event or sport has become too dangerous. That's distinct from someone who may think its time to reduce danger they've been accepting all along. This is the case of professionals in the sport saying this new evolution has gone too far too fast, without sufficient engineering around safety.
The discussion has never been about whether there should be any danger, but some continually try to paint the other safer point of view into that corner. It's about whether they have gone beyond the cutting edge, into the bleeding edge.
On another point, this is the cache resume race of a lifetime. No other matches it, IMO. Not every crew member will have multiple shots at it. I would be curious how many crew do repeat. Maybe that's changing, now that they're paid. The few I've met over the years only got in one race. I may try to track one down and see what he thinks of this new format and the risks his younger colleagues are taking.
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
Personally, I am FAR more impressed by what this kid did last year, than anything Larry Ellison will spend tens of million$ to accomplish on SF Bay this year... If any sailor has truly and so purely demonstrated the "indomitable will to adapt and overcome" - to borrow c. breeze's words - it's Matt Rutherford:
Sailor Matt Rutherford welcomed home in Annapolis after sailing solo around the Americas - Washington Post
![Image]()
To be clear, I was among those who expressed doubts about the likely success of Rutherford's venture from the beginning... He certainly proved me wrong, and I can only hope the AC guys manage to do so, as well...
Many different ways of pushing the edge...
Personally, I am FAR more impressed by what this kid did last year, than anything Larry Ellison will spend tens of million$ to accomplish on SF Bay this year... If any sailor has truly and so purely demonstrated the "indomitable will to adapt and overcome" - to borrow c. breeze's words - it's Matt Rutherford:
Sailor Matt Rutherford welcomed home in Annapolis after sailing solo around the Americas - Washington Post
To be clear, I was among those who expressed doubts about the likely success of Rutherford's venture from the beginning... He certainly proved me wrong, and I can only hope the AC guys manage to do so, as well...
Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
That trip is totally mind blowing. The mental fortitude it required not too mention plenty of extremely "technical" sailing. A stunner for sure.
And I appreciate that sentiment of hoping the AC guys make it too- but the fatalism... It's just overplayed. I know that you as well as all of us are going to be pretty giddy and bubbly for a little while if this race does come off without another catastrophe. But it will still all be tainted, because a guy died. Bu the problem is- it'll be more than that- it'll be "a guy died- and there were rich guys imcolved" and all the connotations that come with it.
People can hate Larry Ellison because he's spent millions developing a toy, while praising Matt Rutherford for raising money for a charity- but it just starts to sound like a social agenda more than anything at that point- especially if they were a naysayer until Matt was successful. But when you keep it at the sailing level- there's not a lot of difference- Matt was going to go if it didn't raise 6 dollars- Larry's gonna go if it costs 50 million. The commitment to the challenge is there regardless. Those two guys were going to find or make a way for that trip they were on because they had to.
That trip is totally mind blowing. The mental fortitude it required not too mention plenty of extremely "technical" sailing. A stunner for sure.
And I appreciate that sentiment of hoping the AC guys make it too- but the fatalism... It's just overplayed. I know that you as well as all of us are going to be pretty giddy and bubbly for a little while if this race does come off without another catastrophe. But it will still all be tainted, because a guy died. Bu the problem is- it'll be more than that- it'll be "a guy died- and there were rich guys imcolved" and all the connotations that come with it.
People can hate Larry Ellison because he's spent millions developing a toy, while praising Matt Rutherford for raising money for a charity- but it just starts to sound like a social agenda more than anything at that point- especially if they were a naysayer until Matt was successful. But when you keep it at the sailing level- there's not a lot of difference- Matt was going to go if it didn't raise 6 dollars- Larry's gonna go if it costs 50 million. The commitment to the challenge is there regardless. Those two guys were going to find or make a way for that trip they were on because they had to.
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
He would have seen similar speeds aboard a boat almost twice as large, on CLUB MED during The Race... Among the mountainous seas of the Southern Ocean, at night, while basically circumnavigating Antarctica... Thousands of miles from land, no team support or rescue boats on scene, the possibility of a quick rescue slim to none, the prospect of a man overboard likely ensuring a fatality...
For him to say that sailing these AC72s in a breeze of 25+ knots in the comparatively protected waters of SF Bay, with instant assistance/rescue/medical treatment close at hand, is "terrifying"... well, considering the source, that speaks volumes, to me...
BTW, for anyone who hasn't read Tim Zimmerman's THE RACE, I recommend it highly - a terrific read...
Amazon.com: The Race: Extreme Sailing and Its Ultimate Event: Nonstop, Round-the-World, No Holds Barred (9780618382705): Tim Zimmermann: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BxZ72jQuL.@@AMEPARAM@@51%2BxZ72jQuL
I don't know, when a guy like Grant Dalton makes such a statement, I'll sit up and take notice... I don't believe these boats are that far out of his "experience zone", after all...
He would have seen similar speeds aboard a boat almost twice as large, on CLUB MED during The Race... Among the mountainous seas of the Southern Ocean, at night, while basically circumnavigating Antarctica... Thousands of miles from land, no team support or rescue boats on scene, the possibility of a quick rescue slim to none, the prospect of a man overboard likely ensuring a fatality...
For him to say that sailing these AC72s in a breeze of 25+ knots in the comparatively protected waters of SF Bay, with instant assistance/rescue/medical treatment close at hand, is "terrifying"... well, considering the source, that speaks volumes, to me...
BTW, for anyone who hasn't read Tim Zimmerman's THE RACE, I recommend it highly - a terrific read...
Amazon.com: The Race: Extreme Sailing and Its Ultimate Event: Nonstop, Round-the-World, No Holds Barred (9780618382705): Tim Zimmermann: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BxZ72jQuL.@@AMEPARAM@@51%2BxZ72jQuL
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
Football has a major lawsuit concerning concussions I believe
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
I agree about Matt. I met him in Annapolis a few months ago at a speaking engagement. Quite a story.Many different ways of pushing the edge...
Personally, I am FAR more impressed by what this kid did last year, than anything Larry Ellison will spend tens of million$ to accomplish on SF Bay this year... If any sailor has truly and so purely demonstrated the "indomitable will to adapt and overcome" - to borrow c. breeze's words - it's Matt Rutherford:
Sailor Matt Rutherford welcomed home in Annapolis after sailing solo around the Americas - Washington Post
![Image]()
To be clear, I was among those who expressed doubts about the likely success of Rutherford's venture from the beginning... He certainly proved me wrong, and I can only hope the AC guys manage to do so, as well...
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
That's an example of wanting to reduce a risk that has been accepted up until now, not one that was increased as a result of taking on more risk. Exactly what the AC should be doing, but first took a huge step backwards.
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
While he does not appear to be a particularly nice man, I certainly respect the remarkable success he has achieved in his life, both in business, and sailing... My primary gripe with him, as with many other American yacht owners of vast wealth, is that he can't be bothered to fly the Stars & Stripes from the stern of his private cruise ship...
I do find it amusing, however, that a man of such impressive accomplishment and station in life, might still have some 'Mine's Bigger' issues to deal with... (grin)
![Image]()
For the record, I don't "hate" Larry Ellison...
While he does not appear to be a particularly nice man, I certainly respect the remarkable success he has achieved in his life, both in business, and sailing... My primary gripe with him, as with many other American yacht owners of vast wealth, is that he can't be bothered to fly the Stars & Stripes from the stern of his private cruise ship...
I do find it amusing, however, that a man of such impressive accomplishment and station in life, might still have some 'Mine's Bigger' issues to deal with... (grin)
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Re: Another America's Cup entry destroyed
Formula 1 yes, but anyone can buy basically the same bikes that are used in the TDF. The main difference between your bike (if you buy the same model) and Lance Armstrong's bike is that Armstrong has full time mechanics responsible for keeping his bike running like a Swiss watch. Well, he did at one time.
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