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Boating, Passagemaking, and Licensing

34K views 338 replies 45 participants last post by  CapnBilll  
#1 ·
I think many of us have been following the adventures of Ronnie. If not, take a peek at this thread: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/gener.../forums/general-discussion-sailing-related/47882-bfs-proponent-rescued-sea.html

We have discussed licensing on this board many times. I bring it up again now as this is a perfect example of leaving the shore unprepared and not equipped for the passage ahead. I have read many threads lately on this board and get the feeling that some people wake up one day, decide to sail around the world, purchase something that floats... and are on their way. Either they are too ignorant of the sea or do not care about the potential impacts on life, possessions, or money to take the time to be a responsible boater. In essense, they could care less about seamanship.

Some of these people make it. Fortune smiled on them. Some are killed. The others rely on the technologies of today (EPIRB, for example) for someone to come and save them. It is these people that primarily concern me.

I for one have weighed the whole licensing issue for some time and have finally come to the conclusion that it is warranted. I think the licensing should be based upon length/tonnage. I feel it should include PWC and bass boats and ski boats. They are not immune from being killed by the water.

I realize many of you dissagree with this as you are likely those that have taken the time to apprecaite the sea. You value seamanship. You realize your lack of preparation or education can kill yourself or others. However, there are many people that do not and will never care unless forced to take some responbsibility for their actions. I feel a license is that first step. You cannot fly a plane without a license. You should not be able to drive a boat without a license. Is a plane really that much more dangerous that it should require a license while a boat should not? I do not think so.

THoughts?

- CD
 
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#289 ·
Actually, none of you really know "where my head is at" lol

It's certainly not up you know where.

The fact is, I think safety in ANYTHING we do is not a "don't worry about it" proposition.

In fact, I agree completely that safety courses are a good thing. I had to take a hunter's safety course here in Colorado, even THOUGH, I have been a safe hunter all my life, ACED the test - but I still had to pay for the course - which by the way, was mandated by regulations here, BUT not put on by the State. Instead, it is put on by a certain group of sporting goods stores, the teacher is... "Plumber Joe" or "Electrician Phil" or "Radio Guy Rick" (or whomever they can find who can read most of the words on a page)....

The store gets the money, the "teacher" gets a cut, and the students get a second chance to pass the test for their card if the fail.

I agree safety is first.

I agree that there ought to be a course that every dealer in Marine products ought to HAVE TO teach for safety, for State regulations. I note that both my state and TX have regulations that mirror the USCG regs for everything from safety and lighting equipment to boat designations.

Seems like the regs are already in place, in most places that boating safety is paramount.

How is a license going to make this better? I still don't get it.
 
#288 ·
Hmmmmm

Texas....

Funny.....

Mandatory Boater Education Requirements

A TPWD certified boater education course and photo I.D. is required for any person born on or after September 1, 1984 to operate (1) a vessel powered by motor of 10 horsepower or more; or (2) a windblown vessel over 14 feet in length. **Boater Education courses from other states are acceptable if NASBLA (National Association of State Boating Law Administrators) approved.

Exceptions: A person is exempt from the mandatory boater education requirement if the person (1) is at least 18 years of age; (2) is accompanied by a person at least 18 years of age who is exempt from the course or who has completed the course; (3) holds a master's, mate's, or operators license issued by the U.S. Coast Guard; or (4) is otherwise exempt by rule of the department.

A person adjudged guilty of one of the following (operating) violations: (1) any personal watercraft (operating) violation, (2) reckless or negligent operation, (3) excessive speed, (4) reckless operation and excessive speed, (5) hazardous wake or wash, (6) circular course around fisherman or swimmer, (7) interference with markers or ramps, (8) obstructing passage, (9) operating boats in restricted areas, (10) operating vessels in scuba diving or snorkeling areas, (11) skiing during illegal hours or in a manner that endangers life or property, shall be required to successfully complete an approved boater education course AND pay a fine. Failure to complete the boater education course within 90 days will result in the person committing an offense that is a Parks and Wildlife Class A misdemeanor.
So - CD, there's where you need to start. Since you live in Tx, you need to convince local legislators to change the law LOCALLY.

Have fun with that.
 
#312 ·
In a way Rick, you are making my point for me. I agree that a license doesn't guarantee that the licensee will operate in a safe manner. But it does show that at least at one point in time the individual was able to demonstrate an understanding of the material considered most important. So if we agree that some sort of education should be mandated, I don't care if we call it a certificate of attendence, proof of educational attainment in the art and science of lighter than water **** sapien transport vehicles, or whatever. The fact remains, only an objective third party can establish the criteria (read not boat salesmen), and ensure that individuals on the water abide. This falls back to government organizations (or in a slightly more ideal world) private enterprise contracted to the government.

BTW, I did realize it took a million dollar policy to fly model airplanes, but I believe mine cost me about $50/year back when I flew them. :D

Michael
 
#313 ·
"I think this right here is certainly part of the issue here.

We had a discussion on another site I frequent about someone shooting his bow and arrow in the back yard. The area was a rural area and the boys shooting the bow were being completely safe.

It turned out the neighbor didn't like weapons of any sort. He called the Sheriff. There was no law against what the boys were doing... so the neighbor who turned out to be on the country commission proposed a new "ordinance" to make it illegal to shoot bows and arrows. No one could see a reason to NOT pass the law.

The next time the kids were practicing, they were arrested.

Simple, easy fix. huh?"



This is also where we agree, ordinances like this are why I hate government intervention. They always seem to side with the vocal minority over the majority. But my question to you remains, should anyone be allowed to operate a HF radio, or only those that have demonstrated education to do so?
(eg would you want SD with his 28,000 posts on this site alone on your favorite radio frequency without any training? ;) )

Michael
 
#315 ·
This is also where we agree, ordinances like this are why I hate government intervention. They always seem to side with the vocal minority over the majority. But my question to you remains, should anyone be allowed to operate a HF radio, or only those that have demonstrated education to do so?
(eg would you want SD with his 28,000 posts on this site alone on your favorite radio frequency without any training? ;) )

Michael
Anyone CAN operate a radio, without any training at all.

Allowed? Well, who's going to stop them?

About once a month WE the ham radio operators in this area are hit with illegally operated transmitters. They lock up and interfere, sometimes maliciously, with transmissions of legal operators.

It's against the law.

The FCC doesn't stop it.

Ham radio operators "SELF POLICE" meaning we track down and report the offenders.

I'm thinking, it works pretty well, since the FCC almost ALWAYS hands them a ticket after documentation.

In an emergency ANYONE can LEGALLY operate ANY transmitter, being that a Marine VHF, HF radio, Ham radio, Police Radio, Fire radio, ditch digger radio - don't matter, if it's an emergency. So, seriously the point is moot.

My thinking is, if there is such a problem in Texas that one person, a vocal minority, thinks it's time to license everyone and he's not researched the costs and complexities of this whole subject (as he freely admitted) then he is one loud voice and only one.

Furthermore he might be running a forum or moderating it or whatever, but that is not teaching safety classes. It's NOT self policing either.

He and other Mariners in the area ought to be forming a group to take down numbers on the little boats, big power boats and taking pictures of incidents and making POLICE reports to curtail the problem, LONG before anyone gets a government entity into the mess.

That's my point. If he hasn't done this then he has not exhausted all the possibilities yet.

In answer to your question, yes, I would LOVE to have CD or any of the rest of you on the air, and will gladly put you on the radio at my station. But, I would be supervising (control operator we call it) and you would still have to abide by regulations!

Why? because there are regulations. (And it's legal for me to act as control operator for '3rd party traffic' that is someone who is not licensed and doesn't have a clue).

Most of you, I would assume have some abilities at operating a radio though.

Were he to go on the air illegally? That's out of my hands. :)

But, we're also talking about a "Regulated Service" and not an unregulated leisure activity.
 
#321 ·
By the way, let me clear something.

Amateur Radio isn't "just a hobby". Certainly there are some who do nothing at all but get on the radio and jabber-jaw to buddies in another state, or country.

However, note that I stated "Amateur Radio Service". I said that for a reason.

Under ham radio, we operate, certainly to experiment and for fun, but we also provide a SERVICE.

Most of you are familiar with stuff like Sailmail and Airmail, Pactor I, II, and III, Packet Radio and Single Sideband. All of those things were invented by Amateur Radio Operators. So was RTTY (Radio Teletype). So was Amplitude Modulation, Frequency Modulation and Phase Modulation.

We have satellites in space - so NASA ain't the only ones capable of launching such things and the various governments around the world don't have one thing over Amateur Radio when it comes to communication.

Finally, and most importantly, the Amateur Radio SERVICE does serve the public by providing a conduit through which MANY messages pass daily.

I think some of you might be aware that the very last "Telegram" through Western Union was sent a few years ago. They no longer do that service. Amateur Radio still provides, for FREE that service and we practice it.

We have the Amateur Radio Emergency Service (I'm a member). The Radio Amateur Communications Emergency Service (A government MANDATED and FUNDED program to assist local authorities in disasters, attacks and other such emergencies). We have Skywarn, a National Weather Service program in which Hams play a vital role in assisting in spotting tornadoes and severe weather, doing measurements and helping to WARN people of incoming weather. (we have prevented many deaths because we warned small towns before they were hit by tornadoes). I'm a member of Skywarn as well.

So... the point to this is, you are equating a radio set and some 30-something-year old geek sitting in his mama's basement with ham radio and then comparing it to boaters who are sitting in a slip, or mooring someplace in the middle of nowhere.

They simply are not the same thing.
 
#324 ·
Rick,
Please do not take offense of my use of the word hobby. I have worked in the past with HF radio operators in emergency situations and have nothing but the highest respect for ya'll. I plan someday on gaining my own license. I absolutely meant no disrespect.
Michael
 
#322 ·
Rick,

Thanks for the information on the ITU, I did not know that part of it. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. As I stated earlier, I do believe we are way over-regulated in the US. I would love to see many of the ordinances, laws, mandatory licensing and certification go away. However, in this case; and it pains me to say it, I have to come down on the side of some proof of education/knowledge of the "rules of the road" before anyone with a gold card can pull out of a marina with a 10 ton bomb.

Thanks for your respectful and well thought out arguements,

Michael
 
#323 ·
I agree that many of our laws should have a "Sunset" limit on them. With them expiring after X number of years. :mad:
But then again I feel that anyone who purchases/charters a vessel should show some training on Marine safety and a knowledge of the rules. A one or two day course should cover this. Even if you have to:hammer into their brains.
 
#330 ·
All of the above. :)

Ever heard of the Society for Creative Anachronism?

It's a "Medieval Re-Creationist Society" where the folks involved "recreate various portions of the middle ages... not the plagues and poverty, just the good parts!"

Haha. I spent twenty years of my military career traveling about, usually carrying my armor and weapons to various parts of the world to demonstrate and practice with others. Over the years we put on a lot of shows - all of course not associated with my actual JOB - but for fun, and I learned several weapon types.

My armor currently is retired to the Armor Tree in my rec room and I don't do it any more (except on occasion to show up with the youngsters that are doing it now, and kick some of their asses to show that old people can still win a fight.....)

Why?
 
#332 ·
If there's an image there, apparently it's blocked here hahaha

guess I will have to respond later :)
 
#336 ·
As a merchant marine who spends a lot of time in a commercial wheel house, I can tell we that we stand in awe over some of the stupid **** we see self taught, un-licsenced, pleasure boater's do. Should you be required by law to have credentials? NO. Required by common sense to seek out seamanship training? ABSOLUTELY!!
 
#339 ·
I think we can all agree getting a license has never stopped an idiot before, why do we think it will now? Most other areas of life have required licenses, to get one you can just pay the tax.

The test, if there even is one, mostly covers regulations, not real world skills needed to do the task safely.

Even on a good day anyone can pay a bribe and get any license required with no qualifications, or even citizenship.

The quoted millionaire that drops a check for a megayacht and rams through the marina at full throttle, no matter how wealthy can only do this a few times, eventually the loss of his boat, the lawsuites from other boats damaged, the prison time for manslaughter, will get him off the water. taking his license wont remove him any quicker. He will pay someone to take any required classes for him anyway.

Right now there are individuals that will take the driving test and any required defensive driving classes for you for a small fee, they get enough work to live off of the income. Some take the class several times in the same day, apparently the beaurocrats at the DMV don't think anything is odd, that all of the test attendees look exactly the same every day. In a minority community near you 1/3 to 1/2 of the licensed drivers have exactly the same persons picture on it...and they are driving next to you on the freeway.

The same idiots that waked you in the miserable mile, will still wake you after this law passes, they will just have a plastic card in their wallet with someone elses picture on it that they bought on a street corner.

Still think it is a good idea, just wait...there is legislation pending right now to make AIS mandatory for everything that floats. Go too fast through a no wake, or manatee, or marine sanctuary zone, they will mail you the ticket. Cross any of these zones while possessing a fish, they will take your boat. Here in Texas boaters have had their boat seized and GPS data pulled in court to determine of they caught the right fish at the right position, posses both fish they assume you caught them at the illegal place, it is up to you to prove different.

Right now AIS is dropping in price, wait and see what the price does when you are forced by law to buy one.

If boating was so dangerous insurance co's would not insure you without proof of a boating course. Right now mine will not even give me a discount, and I am USCG licensed.

The biggest loss (over 90%) is from named storms, so do we require a license to tie up to a slip???

Boater Licensing = :puke Boater Licensing = :puke Boater Licensing = :puke