[Faster]

Paulo have you posted yet on the Blue Jacket 40?

http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/blue-jacket-40.html

 

[hannah2]

Hi Faster,
That is a nice boat for a family, even a couple that likes to enjoy everything but bluewater cruising, very nice for that. What I love most is that the company advertises the boat for exactly what it is,'Delightful enviroment for family vacations and over night getaways.' I respect a company that sell its product truthfully. Unlike the one that was discussed earlier that claimed their boat was for serious cruisers when in fact it was probably far less sturdy than the Bluejacket.

 

[PCP]

Blue Jacket 40

Paulo have you posted yet on the Blue Jacket 40?

Blue Jacket 40 (BJ40) Performance Sailing Yacht | BlueJacketYachts.com

Yes, about two months ago. I well repost for you.

Big surprise: Island packet is going to launch a series of performance cruisers. They will be called Blue Jacket line and will be designed by Tim Jackett (ex-President and Chief Designer at Tartan and C&C) in collaboration with Bob Johnson (CEO and Chief Designer at Island Packet).

The first one is already on its way to production and even if in what regards cabin design I find the boat too classic, not to say old fashioned, in what regards hull design and technical characteristics I love the boat.

Well, the keel could be more modern and efficient (it is similar to the one on my boat) but in what regards all the rest it looks perfect to me. In fact it is very close to the Comet 41s in what regards weight, ballast and hull design. It fits on the Italian way of looking to performance cruisers.

A relatively narrow boat with a good B/D a deep draft (2.30) and a big stability that is the opposite in design conception of the also new Tartan(and the CC121). I like a lot more this one.

Well, there are some things I don't like: The traveler over the cabin and only one winch on each side of the cockpit that will have to be used for the mainsail and the genoa, but I believe that could be changed if clients ask otherwise.

Technical Characteristics
LOA: 39' 10" (12.14 m)
LWL: 35' 0" (10.67 m)
BEAM: 12' 4" (3.76 m)
DRAFT: 7' 5" (2.29 m) deep
5' 2" (1.56 m) shoal
DISP: 16, 500 lbs (7,484 kg)
BALLAST: 6, 100 lbs (2,767 kg) deep
SAIL AREA: 883 sq ft (82.03 sq m) (100% FT)
MAST HEIGHT: 62' 6" (19.05 m)
POWER: 40 HP (30 kW)
FUEL: 40 US gal (151 l)
WATER: 110 US gal (417 l)
WASTE: 25 US gal (80 l)
SA/D: 21.8
D/L: 172
DESIGNER: Tim Jackett w/Bob Johnson, N.A.

They say about the boat:

Sailplan and rig:
The large sailplan is a further refinement of the Solent style rig featuring standard double head sails with a working jib and a lightweight 150% reacher that mounts on the integral bow prod, both furled with Harken® systems. The working jib is fitted with a carbon fiber Hoyt Boom® that is self-tending and improves performance with its close sheeting and self-vanging feature while the large reacher boosts performance in light air or when off the wind. The fully battened mainsail is equipped with a standard electric halyard winch and a low friction Battcar system and drops easily into a carbon fiber pocket boom with an integral cover and lazy jack system.

This easily managed rig has ample horsepower and versatility for optimizing performance in a wide range of conditions. All sheets lead to the cockpit near the helm and primary winches for short-handed convenience.
On deck:
On deck, anchor handling has been simplified and made especially convenient with a cleverly designed roller recessed in the bow prod providing secure stowage of the anchor and directing the rode to the anchor locker with a (optional) below deck electric windlass that keeps the deck and profile uncluttered. A deck hatch gives access to this area. Wide side decks with full length raised bulwarks, double lifelines, bow and stern rails and cabin top handrails provide security on deck.

The large cockpit has deep coamings, long seats and twin helm stations with great visibility and ready access to all sail control lines. Seat hatches provide access to storage areas and a (optional) central drop-leaf table makes for a great social area. Hinged transom doors open to the integral stern platform with a retractable swim ladder under a central hatch.

Materials used:
The Blue Jacket's hull and deck are made with a state of the art vacuum infusion process utilizing 100% vinylester resin, quadraxial knitted E-glass reinforcements and a structural foam core. The end result is superior strength and stiffness with significantly reduced weight compared to conventional laminates. …

The use of premium structural foam coring produces better interlaminar bond properties with freedom from potential core deterioration compared to other choices and allows for an industry-best extended hull and deck warranty.

http://www.bluejacketyachts.com/

..

Regards

Paulo

 

[PCP]

Bluejacket 40

Hi Faster,
... What I love most is that the company advertises the boat for exactly what it is,'Delightful enviroment for family vacations and over night getaways.' I respect a company that sell its product truthfully. Unlike the one that was discussed earlier that claimed their boat was for serious cruisers when in fact it was probably far less sturdy than the Bluejacket.

I don't know where you read that but on the Design brief Tim jacket says this is a cruiser/racer able to be raced competitively around the buoys and in offshore races and that as a cruising boat it will be comfortable and easy. One can assume in coastal and Offshore conditions since this is also an Offshore racer and therefore an offshore cruiser when used that way.

This is not certainly a weekend cruiser and if it was advertised as that it was wrongly advertised. This boat has a overall good stability and a cruising interior that will support extensive cruising having not any problem in sailing offshore and crossing oceans. The boat has a water capacity of over 400L and the 150L of fuel will not be a problem since this is a boat that needs very little wind to sail and the water will be good for at least three weeks, I mean with a couple and you can always install an watermaker if needed. I have seen many circumnavigating with ease in boats with far less capacity in what regards tankage/storage and seaworthiness.

Well, it would not be indicated for extensive cruising with two couples, but with a couple (or one with kids) I don't see any problem and it would be the type of boat that I would choose for coastal sailing and occasionally cross an ocean or two

I guess that if they advertise it like that it is because it does not make much sense that the builder of an old designed and anachronistic boat like the Island Packet joins on his line a modern performance cruiser. People would just ask:

An Interview with Tim Jackett and Bob Johnson:...

Q: Bob, given Island Packet's successful 33 year track record with over 2,500 yachts built and sailing in all corners of the world, how do you see the Island Packet line evolving, and what impact might the Blue Jacket series have on future Island Packets?

A: (BJ) Wow…give me a crystal ball! I guess I'd respond by first saying the "design brief" for Island Packet will almost certainly remain unchanged, with its focus continuing to be on seakeeping, safety, livability and ease of handling for a cruising couple. Different manufacturing technologies (infused composite hulls and decks, carbon fiber components, etc.) introduced with the Blue Jacket line may eventually find their way into Island Packet construction if deemed appropriate, but the two product lines address different market segments with different sets of priorities.

I certainly would prefer to go offshore or cross an ocean on the Bluejacket than on a 40ft Island Packet, seaworthiness and sea motion included and I am sure I am not the only one that think that way.

But he is right saying that the old shoe is addressed to other type of sailors

Regards

Paulo

 

[hannah2]

I read that on the Bluejacket website. I'm not saying you can't cross oceans in this boat because it is a nice boat and seaworthy. But I believe that Island Packet used accurate words describing their boat. The Bluejacket 40 would be a great boat for taking the family down to the caribbean from the southern USA for the winter. But with only 40 gallons of fuel making full ocean passages seems not all that practical to me. After many ocean passages over forty years I like the idea now of being able to motor if needed for at least 800 miles. Tonga to NZ is a good example where there are some passages where a stationary high pressure was right in the middle of the passage. Everyone no matter how romantic about sailing would like to be able to get to NZ as fast as possible before the next nasty weather shows up. I have done it with 10 gallons of fuel and did not mind because that is what we had on board. But I'm wiser now and if you are lucky enough to be able to have a cruising boat with lots of fuel you should. I would own the Bluejacket if we decided to stay in Mexico and sail the Sea of Cortez where distance for fuel is not a problem.

I always wanted a Hinckley SWester but now I realize they were made with the New Englander in mind for two week cruises and trips down south, little fuel and water for trips across the Pacific and the Indian Ocean, but they could do it, that's for sure.

Cheers.

 

[PCP]

Cruising Styles and different pleasures.

I read that on the Bluejacket website. I'm not saying you can't cross oceans in this boat because it is a nice boat and seaworthy. But I believe that Island Packet used accurate words describing their boat. The Bluejacket 40 would be a great boat for taking the family down to the caribbean from the southern USA for the winter. But with only 40 gallons of fuel making full ocean passages seems not all that practical to me. After many ocean passages over forty years I like the idea now of being able to motor if needed for at least 800 miles. Tonga to NZ is a good example where there are some passages where a stationary high pressure was right in the middle of the passage. Everyone no matter how romantic about sailing would like to be able to get to NZ as fast as possible before the next nasty weather shows up. I have done it with 10 gallons of fuel and did not mind because that is what we had on board. But I'm wiser now and if you are lucky enough to be able to have a cruising boat with lots of fuel you should. I would own the Bluejacket if we decided to stay in Mexico and sail the Sea of Cortez where distance for fuel is not a problem.

I always wanted a Hinckley SWester but now I realize they were made with the New Englander in mind for two week cruises and trips down south, little fuel and water for trips across the Pacific and the Indian Ocean, but they could do it, that's for sure.

Cheers.

Well, some would think that regarding what you say this is the better boat for offshore cruising or to circumnavigate:

I knew once a guy that circumnavigated solo without any problem on a 33ft sailboat without any engine. That was back in the first years of the 80's and the boat was heavy and not particularly fast (the Bluejacket is much faster and sail with much less wind). He was not a poor guy, he was a sailing instructor, a great sailor and didn't need or want any engine.

Almost 10 years ago I remember a member of this forum that sailed from US to Australia on a 40ft fast J boat with much less fuel tankage than the one the Bluejacket has. At the time that make me some confusion and I asked how mach fuel he had wasted. I don't remember the right numbers but it was ridiculously little, less than half the tankage that if I remember rightly was 90L. He used that mostly for charging the batteries....and its average speed was awesome too (I don't remember the number but I know I was impressed and I am not easily impressed).

The type of boat you favor is a better sailer than the Nordhaven, by a large margin but also by a large margin is a worse sailer than the Bluejacket. I am not referring to seaworthiness or storage but simply to speed and most of all the amount of wind needed to sail. While the Bluejacket will probably make with a Geenaker 4K speed with 4K wind your boat would be almost dead on the water. That makes for a lot of fuel

Note that I don't defend on this thread any type of boat over another. There are sailors for all of them. Neither I try to impose my personal tastes to other sailors, but describing a boat like the Bluejacket 40 has a boat for "over night getaways" is ridiculous and inappropriate. That would be a description that would fit in another beautiful american sailing boat, the Morris 36 classic:

Regarding circumnavigating and the boat different kind of sailors would chose to do it, we are following the circumnavigation of a French Young couple, both very experienced sailors, that have chosen a boat with even less storage or tankage than the Bluejacket. They are having a great time, have not any problem and love their boat, a Fox 10.20: a small and fast performance cruiser

Regards

Paulo

 

[hannah2]

Again as far as the bluejacket 40 goes and what the company says on its website, " The Bluejacket 40 is a delightful enviroment for family vacations and overnight getaways as well as racing around bouys." I just think the company is being honest. But don't get me wrong the Bluejacket 40 can sail anywhere a sailor wants to take it.

As far as the young French couple go in their Fox, I congratulate them they are out there in a great boat and enjoying life. I wish more young people could do the same instead of having to work their butt of just to make ends meet. Remember, "Life is not a practice run it is the real thing." My wife and I in our 60's now enjoy being in the same anchorages as the young. We still think young but I can't surf 15 foot hollow waves anymore. That explains who we have become and out of senseability. The point is there are many more of us in our 50's and 60's out sailing oceans and we have different needs. If I was 28 years old I would want a Pogo or a Fox because they are great boats and affordable. But in our old age we are wise enough and experienced enough to understand we want things like motoring through a high pressure with no wind if it looks like there is bad weather on the way. We will sail our new boat until she will not sail because there is no wind but I then turn the engine on for how many hours it takes to find wind. And believe me we are not in a hurry just want to be prudent.

As far as those who sail without an engine aboard, they are few and are very romantic or just never had the money to get a boat with an engine. Nothing wrong with that remember that's what I did at 22 years of age.

We picked our new boat because we are lucky to be able to afford it. We wanted to do something new and exciting. We could have gone out and bought an old valiant or a mason 44 like we had before or a new Oyster. but the idea of a more modern design was our desire. We could have gone out and bought a Fox, a Pogo or a Bluejacket40, we like them but they just did not fit our needs for a bluewater cruiser. We now on our new boat coming have good speed, tankage, comfort and safety and the ability to go to atolls all over the world and jungle rivers of S. America or Borneo and on our terms. That is what fit our needs to enjoy our last bluewater boat. I think the majority of Bluewater cruisers wish if they could have it would like something a little more than the BlueJacket 40. Mind you not that much more.
Cheers

 

[PCP]

Long range cruising and sailboat preferences.

Again as far as the bluejacket 40 goes and what the company says on its website, " The Bluejacket 40 is a delightful enviroment for family vacations and overnight getaways as well as racing around bouys." ....

I think the majority of Bluewater cruisers wish if they could have it would like something a little more than the BlueJacket 40. Mind you not that much more.
Cheers

More important than whatever the message the company that is making and selling the boat want to pass is what the boat was designed for and the one that knows about that is the one that had designed it, Tim Jackett and he says about it: The design challenge presented was to create a yacht with a performance pedigree, one that could compete effectively in around-the-buoy and offshore races yet provide a level of comfort, build quality and ease of use that would gratify the entire family.

I know enough of sailingboats to recognize what they are made for in what regards cruising and racing and I am quite sure that describing Bluejacket sailing cruising program as a boat particularly suited for "overnight getaways" makes as sense as describing a Hunter 40 as a boat specially suited for bluewater cruising. Brands can say what they want to sell the boats, we would be fools if we believed in all what they say

Regarding bluewater cruisers wanting something more than the BlueJacket, it all depends on the cruisers. Some would want a smaller boat, others a bigger boat and the ones that would want a bigger would not want necessarily an aluminium centerboarder. Some would want an heavier fiberglass boat like an Amel, others would want a faster and lighter one like a Pogo 50, others would want a even faster ocean cat like the Outremer 49.

Personally If I was going to circumnavigate I would not chose a boat not bigger than 40ft, I would chose a light boat easy to maintain, easy to sail solo (with small sails), stable, and that would sail with very light winds. I guess that a JPK 38 with a swing keel would be a possible choice. I find the Pogo 12.50 already too big to be sailed solo comfortably, and solo because if I do that there is no way I could bring my wife alone. She likes to do coastal cruise but simply is not interested to be 15 days in a boat without going to shore, and by the way I have almost 60 years old but like to sail fast and get bored in a slow boat and I am not the only one, I mean "old" sailors that like to cruise while enjoying sailing fast.

Each case is a case, sailors are different and that's why there are so many different type of boats designed for bluewater cruising and voyaging. As an example look at the difference in cruising style and sailing between the bigger sister of your boat, an Aluminium Boreal 50, a Pogo 50 or an Outremer 49. All are designed having in mind long distance cruising, but how different can they be? As different as the type of sailors that will prefer each one, and that has nothing to do with age

The Boréals are aluminium sailing yachts with a centerboard, designed for long offshore voyaging.
- This means that the approach is totally different from a 'holiday' cruising boat
- built in aluminium (which, whilst not an absolute necessity for long voyages, remains the best choice of material)
- with a centerboard inside a keel box.
Introduction

Like its siblings in the Pogo range, the Pogo 50 is tailored for fast cruising : it is light, wide, and features a deep (lifting !) draft and generous sail area. Its speed and its seaworthiness put far, far away shores within reach ! Its shallow draft, once the keel is up, allows access to all little paradisiac coves. Its lean deck plan and large cockpit make it the ideal boat at the mooring.
Pogo 50 | finot-conq architectes navals

Go fast, go far, enjoy yourself
The Outremers were created from a solid concept: the design and build of catamarans which are all seaworthy, fast and simple. ...Seaworthy, to be free to go anywhere. Seaworthy means to favour security. ...Fast for both safety and the sensations.
Speed is an element of safety and comfort. When facing a particular weather scenario, the average speeds our boats are capable of, allow routes which would otherwise be impossible at lower speeds. Speed is a source of pleasure. It is the very essence of sailing.
Since 1984, 200 such craft have sailed all the seas of the globe crewed by couples and families making their dreams a reality.....The majority have sailed far and wide, with numerous circumnavigations of the globe being achieved.
Outremer Catamaran - The Concept

Regards

Paulo

 

[PCP]

Vendee Globe

And Voila, Armel given as first doing 17.4K , Jean-Pierre much more South doing 20.9K at only 20.3Nm, François on the same course doing 20.4K at 40.9Nm and Stamm in an intermediate course regarding Armel and Jean-Pierre doing, 20.5K and at 98.8Nm.

Things seem clear now and tomorrow Jean-Pierre will be probably leading, François is going to take more time but probably will pass also Armel and Stamm will be closer also. Armel has not so much pressure but most of all it has a worst wind angle. But they all will be very close and that's what we want

Fantastic race!!!

Last night I had said that François Gabart and Jean-Pierre Dick were going probably have record speeds. Here it is the confirmation:

Breaking News:Yesterday, between 11am GMT Thursday 29th to 11am GMT Friday 30th November François Gabart (MACIF), travelled from point to point, 482.91 miles in twenty-four hours, averaging speeds of 20.1 knots. This breaks the record held previously by Alex Thomson in 2003. Confirmation of the record is subject to the WSSRC validation.

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

Day 21 highlights - Friday, November 30, 2012 por VendeeGlobeTV

 

[PCP]

Re: Vendee Globe

....

Things seem clear now and tomorrow Jean-Pierre will be probably leading, François is going to take more time but probably will pass also Armel and Stamm will be closer also. Armel has not so much pressure but most of all it has a worst wind angle. But they all will be very close and that's what we want

...

Well, I was 100% right, how coll is that

Jean-Pierre is leading, making 20.3K and with an advantage of 11.7Nm over Armel that is making 19.7K. That lateral distance has almost disapered and we will have a drag race again.

François also recovered to Armel and it is only at 25.7Nm, about the same distance that separated him from Armel when they went for different strategic options. He is making 19.9K, he is close to the same course as Jean-Pierre and have maintained the same distance to Jean-Pierre.

The two big winners of the last days were Jean-Pierre that won 97Nm to Armel, since they went to different strategic options and Stamm that won 85nm to Armel and it is now at 78Nm from Armel. He is sailing in about the same course has Armel and doing 20.1K.

I guess that we have in Stamm an unsuspected Swiss contender for the victory. He was discussing the first places some weeks back, he had big problems, went to the top of his mast with the boat sailing at speed (quite incredibly that), repaired his light geenaker, recovered brilliantly and his back again on the head of the race (4th now). Great sailing, great sailor

...

 

[PCP]

New boat: Dufour 410 Grand Large

Technical Characteristics:

Dufour 410 Grand Large

LOA: 12,35 m
HL: 11,98 m
LWL: 11,15 m
Beam: 4,20 m
Displ.: 9430 kg
Ball: 2600kg
Draft: 2,10 m
Fuel Tankage: 200 l
Engine: 30 cv
Main: 38 mq
Genoa: 33 mq

.................................................................COMMENTS?

...

 

[Faster]

I like much of what Dufour has been doing, but even among the recent crop of plumb stemmed boats I find these boats particularly 'boxy' in profile.. not exactly pretty.. I think the sheer must be more parallel to the DWL than most others....

 

[hannah2]

Re: Vendee Globe

Well, I was 100% right, how coll is that

Jean-Pierre is leading, making 20.3K and with an advantage of 11.7Nm over Armel that is making 19.7K. That lateral distance has almost disapered and we will have a drag race again.

François also recovered to Armel and it is only at 25.7Nm, about the same distance that separated him from Armel when they went for different strategic options. He is making 19.9K, he is close to the same course as Jean-Pierre and have maintained the same distance to Jean-Pierre.

The two big winners of the last days were Jean-Pierre that won 97Nm to Armel, since they went to different strategic options and Stamm that won 85nm to Armel and it is now at 78Nm from Armel. He is sailing in about the same course has Armel and doing 20.1K.
I guess that we have in Stamm an unsuspected Swiss contender for the victory. He was discussing the first places some weeks back, he had big problems, went to the top of his mast with the boat sailing at speed (quite incredibly that), repaired his light geenaker, recovered brilliantly and his back again on the head of the race (4th now). Great sailing, great sailor

...

Yup, right back together again. In 48 hours a new low will form right below Cape Hope. Not a big low but 30 knots of wind. I think the lead boats will make it to the ESE side of the forming low in time and have wind on the port beam then tailing off to a broad reach. But the boats further behind may have it on the nose for a day or so as they approach the bottom side of the low, and thats maybe the boats only 200 miles behind. If I understand the ice boundry rule right the boats must stay above the ice line and that will keep the bit slower boats in around the low 40's as they east around Hope and that puts them in a place with easterly winds. Does anyone know how far down the east African current goes south? If it goes down into the 40's that could help make things get really messy with lots of different wave trains once the boats get into the lower west Indian ocean just as they pass S. Africa.

Fun stuff, I'm starting to get used to how fast these boats go now. By the way the poor get poorer as the group of boats that are way behind will have poor winds in the coming days and falling even further behind.

Cheers

 

[PCP]

Pictures, great pictures.

Come on guys, more comments on the Dufour 410 and while we wait some fantastic poctures:

Right of way: Get out of the way!!!!

Childen's playground on a 40class racer that is circumnavigating....with the family

 

[PCP]

Vendee Globe

Yup, right back together again. In 48 hours a new low will form right below Cape Hope. Not a big low but 30 knots of wind. I think the lead boats will make it to the ESE side of the forming low in time and have wind on the port beam then tailing off to a broad reach. But the boats further behind may have it on the nose for a day or so as they approach the bottom side of the low, and thats maybe the boats only 200 miles behind. If I understand the ice boundry rule right the boats must stay above the ice line and that will keep the bit slower boats in around the low 40's as they east around Hope and that puts them in a place with easterly winds. Does anyone know how far down the east African current goes south? If it goes down into the 40's that could help make things get really messy with lots of different wave trains once the boats get into the lower west Indian ocean just as they pass S. Africa.

Fun stuff, I'm starting to get used to how fast these boats go now. By the way the poor get poorer as the group of boats that are way behind will have poor winds in the coming days and falling even further behind.

Cheers

Jesus I have enough trouble just following and trying to understand the options of the lead pack. I have no time to look at the problems of the guys behind so I don't know if I agree or not

What I know is that the Drag race will finish, or has already finished and we will have a tactical play again to pass that gate that is surrounded by variable and weak winds.

I guess that some will try to approach it by the North, others by South of it. It seems that both ways have vantages and disadvantages. The only thing I know is that both ways are tricky.

By the way, they don't have to be North or South of the gate, they have just to pass it. If they will enter it by North, they just have to pass it again on the South to North direction.

And the race continues as hot as if it is was a sprint race: those guys just don't like to be 2th, or 3th Armel has managed to recover the lead. He has an advantage of 6.9Nm over Jean-Pierre while François is closing on both and it is now only at 14nm from the lead. They are making respectively 16.1K, 19.3K and 20.2K so that Armel lead is not probably going to last.

Meanwhile Stamm maintains his position and lost very little to the leaser (1.5Nm) but as won distance regarding Jean-Pierre. He is making 16.1K.

Great racing!!!!! I am tired just to look at what these guys are doing This is a crazy rhythm. Can they maintain it?

The rhythm is so hard that François only managed to keep his new 24hour world record for solo sailing....for a 24 hours

Yesterday, between 4am GMT Friday 30th November to 4am GMT Saturday 1st December Jean-Pierre Dick (Virbac Paprec 3) travelled from point to point, 498.80 miles in twenty-four hours, averaging speeds of 20.8 knots. This breaks the record held previously by Alex Thomson in 2003 and, also the record set the day before, subject to ratification, by François Gabart (MACIF), of 482.91 miles in 24hrs. Confirmation of the record is subject to validation by the WSSRC (World Speed Sailing Record Council).

They are almost on top of the 500Nm record and I guess that one of these guys is going to get it on this race.

On the day video at the end just don't lose the images of Tanguy on top of the mast. That is really a big mast

Day 22 highlights - Saturday, December 1, 2012 por VendeeGlobeTV

Cheers

Paulo

 

[HMoll]

Like in the D36P, I like everything I SEE in the new D410, but it needs to shed weight. Thanks for posting!. I thought they would come out with a Performance 40' first. Looked at their website, and it seems they are also launching a new 380GL and a 450 GL.

 

[PCP]

Dufour 410 Grand Large

Technical Characteristics:

Dufour 410 Grand Large

LOA: 12,35 m
HL: 11,98 m
LWL: 11,15 m
Beam: 4,20 m
Displ.: 9430 kg
Ball: 2600kg
Draft: 2,10 m
Fuel Tankage: 200 l
Engine: 30 cv
Main: 38 mq
Genoa: 33 mq

.................................................................COMMENTS?

...

I like much of what Dufour has been doing, but even among the recent crop of plumb stemmed boats I find these boats particularly 'boxy' in profile.. not exactly pretty.. I think the sheer must be more parallel to the DWL than most others....

Like in the D36P, I like everything I SEE in the new D410, but it needs to shed weight. Thanks for posting!.

I like the overall design (graphically speaking) even if I prefer boats less beamier. But I understand the concept in what regards to having a more stable platform and a boat that heels less for the average cruiser that wants his boat mostly to sail downwind and will not sail with a head on wind. After all the vast majority of cruisers motor on those conditions, so yes, this boat makes sense. The boat was bettered in that respect in what regards the previous model, the 405. This one is considerably more beamy (4.20 to 3.98m) and has all beam brought back.

This is, as the last Dufour a Felci design so I have no doubt that it is an efficient and well designed boat for what it is intended to do but I fail to understand why the previous boat weighted 8 990kg and this one 9 430kg. Weight certainly is not an advantage and serves no purpose. Maybe the bigger volume of this boat? Anyway I don't like that extra weight.

Like on the previous model I don't like the B/D ratio of this boat, that is on the low side: 27.5%. I know that it is a bit better than the one of the 405 and this boat has more draft (2.10 for 2.03). This two factors and a substantially bigger beam will give it a bigger RM compared with the previous model, but than it is needed because the boat will have more wave drag and more wet area (more heavier).

I did not saw the keel design but I don't believe that it will be less modern than on the previous model and then we are talking about a torpedo keel with all the ballast down. That will give to this boat a sufficient AVS, but I like boats with a bigger part of its stability coming from the ballast. This boat will sail well, I am sure, in almost all conditions, except close against the wind in a blow were the power needed to overcome the waves and the added wave drag will not be probably enough for a good speed. The boat will heel and the ballast will not be able to give him that extra pull to cope well with those conditions.

Other mass productions boats will do better on those conditions.

Regarding the sail area I don't understand also why the previous boat that was 560kg lighter and had less have drag had more sail upwind (81.90m2 to 71.0m2). That is a big difference and hardly understandable since this boat has more RM and can therefore carry more sail.

A jeanneau 409, that has a better B/D ratio (30%), less beam (3.99m) and weights 1980kg less has more 7m2 of sail and I am not talking about the performance version but about the standard one.

I guess the infusion process is responsible for that big weight difference, but I really don't see how the Dufour 410 can compete with the jeanneau 409, that seems just a better sailing boat. I have also looked recently to other boats on this class and remember that the Hanse 415 has a performance almost as good as the one from the Jeanneau.

The Hanse 415 is, in what regards the hull more similar to the Dufour, both boats have a similar beam and the Hanse is even heavier, weighting more 530kg but it has a much better B/D ratio (32.5%), having a bigger RM and carries more 16m2 of sail and that is a lot.

So I guess I don't like very much the Dufour in what likes its general sailing picture.

Regarding the interior it is a bit risky to talk only about designs but I would say that it seems nice, following the general tendency of a polivalent chart table but I don't like the galley. I mean, it seems big enough but will not offer any support for the back, so I guess that on that one if on the sea you will have to tack the boat to the right side, or maybe the boat heels so little than that it would not be necessary, especially because the boat really only heels hard when pressed against the wind and again, the ones that are going to do buy this boat will not do that (or they have chosen the wrong boat) and therefore all is well

Regards

Paulo

 

[Sapwraia]

Re: Dufour 410 Grand Large

This boat will sail well, I am sure, in almost all conditions, except close against the wind in a blow were the power needed to overcome the waves and the added wave drag will not be probably enough for a good speed. The boat will heel and the ballast will not be able to give him that extra pull to cope well with those conditions.

Paulo, that assesment is spot on - we chartered a 405 last summer in the Med for a week. Not much fun over 20 knots upwind, especially with a building sea. Sail reduction becomes an urgent thing; we did 20 miles to windward just a mile off the Turkish coast into a gusty sou-wester (28-35 knots). At a reasonable angle of heel in lively seas that's a long way (to fall) between the 2 wheels with not a lot to hang onto apart from the wheel. Undersized genoa winches didn't help either. The flat bow sections just pounded as there was never enough speed available that close to the wind

The 405 (and presumably the 410) certainly do what they're primarily designed for - easy family coastal cruising and as a living platform at anchor in a beautiful cove it does it quite well. A nice stable downwind boat but our inshore upwind experience showed that "coastal cruiser" is not a genre of vessel which can happily ignore that scenario - often coastal weather conditions can be more severe that offshore in terms of wave / sea state, and proximity to a leeward shore is always on one's mind

Some particular points about these latest Dufours (our 405 was delivered new in early 2012) - this charter operator almost exclusively uses them (mainly 375's and smaller) - the shore crew are a useful source of feedback after a few beers ! hull moulding, gel coat, non-skid etc very good and our boat still looked brand new in that respect.

Down below was a different matter - notwithstanding the additional wear & tear a charter yacht gets, the finishes already looked 3 years old with veneers worn thru, chipping & peeling in all the vulnerable places. Locker catches breaking regularly etc. Halogen lighting was quite sophisticated and useful but electrical charging systems were a problem on our boat and others too, with limited Dufour support for a solution.

Volume in the main saloon is BIG - and not a place to be upwind in rough weather !

One other fitting which had been removed is the standard transom platform recessed swim ladder which are quite flimsy and apparently only last a matter of months; so are replaced by a more substantial ladder bolted to the stbd side of the transom - not a great look but works well.

Of course this is all in context that these boats don't cost much money in the relative scheme of things - apparently our 405 had been bought new with all gear by the charter company for EUR150k. It seems Dufour were also doing great deals on 2 cabin 375's as they'd mis-calculated demand for that configuration and keen to clear the stock.

If one accepts that these yachts are primarily designed with warm weather charter in mind, then maybe they're a good blend of requirements for the price.

One other observation about cruising boats where the max beam dimension is at the stern : for med style stern-to berthing, esp when you're going for a space which is only just wide enough (and some cross wind) it's not ideal to be leading with your max beam (esp two square corners which can't easily be fendered). Much easier to slip into one of these slots with max beam further forward !

 

[PCP]

Re: Dufour 410 Grand Large

Paulo, that assesment is spot on - we chartered a 405 last summer in the Med for a week. Not much fun over 20 knots upwind, especially with a building sea. Sail reduction becomes an urgent thing; we did 20 miles to windward just a mile off the Turkish coast into a gusty sou-wester (28-35 knots). At a reasonable angle of heel in lively seas that's a long way (to fall) between the 2 wheels with not a lot to hang onto apart from the wheel. Undersized genoa winches didn't help either. The flat bow sections just pounded as there was never enough speed available that close to the wind

The 405 (and presumably the 410) certainly do what they're primarily designed for - easy family coastal cruising and as a living platform at anchor in a beautiful cove it does it quite well. A nice stable downwind boat but our inshore upwind experience showed that "coastal cruiser" is not a genre of vessel which can happily ignore that scenario - often coastal weather conditions can be more severe that offshore in terms of wave / sea state, and proximity to a leeward shore is always on one's mind

Some particular points about these latest Dufours (our 405 was delivered new in early 2012) - this charter operator almost exclusively uses them (mainly 375's and smaller) - the shore crew are a useful source of feedback after a few beers ! hull moulding, gel coat, non-skid etc very good and our boat still looked brand new in that respect.

Down below was a different matter - notwithstanding the additional wear & tear a charter yacht gets, the finishes already looked 3 years old with veneers worn thru, chipping & peeling in all the vulnerable places. Locker catches breaking regularly etc. Halogen lighting was quite sophisticated and useful but electrical charging systems were a problem on our boat and others too, with limited Dufour support for a solution.

Volume in the main saloon is BIG - and not a place to be upwind in rough weather !

One other fitting which had been removed is the standard transom platform recessed swim ladder which are quite flimsy and apparently only last a matter of months; so are replaced by a more substantial ladder bolted to the stbd side of the transom - not a great look but works well.

Of course this is all in context that these boats don't cost much money in the relative scheme of things - apparently our 405 had been bought new with all gear by the charter company for EUR150k. It seems Dufour were also doing great deals on 2 cabin 375's as they'd mis-calculated demand for that configuration and keen to clear the stock.

If one accepts that these yachts are primarily designed with warm weather charter in mind, then maybe they're a good blend of requirements for the price.

One other observation about cruising boats where the max beam dimension is at the stern : for med style stern-to berthing, esp when you're going for a space which is only just wide enough (and some cross wind) it's not ideal to be leading with your max beam (esp two square corners which can't easily be fendered). Much easier to slip into one of these slots with max beam further forward !

Boats are designed for a certain purpose and one designed specifically for blue-water in rough seas would be a very disagreeable one to to live and sail in the conditions we sail most of the time.

I find your opinion about the boat to harsh. Certainly I agree in what you say regarding going upwind with some substantial wind and waves, but out of those conditions and in the conditions the owners of those boats use them (that are also the conditions we use our boats also most of the time), the boat would out perform most of the boats that are very good in harsh conditions, boats designed specifically for those conditions.

Regarding charter, well, that is just a terrible thing to do to a boat. But yes, I have been also sailing on a Dufour 425 with some months and the boat just looked vandalized and probably was. I agree with you that Dufours have nice interiors but not very resistant to an harsh and not careful use but in that regard to that are not worse than most mass production boats. At least they look nice when they are new

Faster, I think that Dufour interior has improved a lot in what regards design quality but in what regards type of boat I still prefer the old 40 performance to any 40 of their line, the 410 or the 40e, so if I can say that I like their improvement in design quality I cannot say the same in what regards type of boat, particularly in what regards B/D ratio.

Off course the old hull and keel could be improved by the new developments in design and some of that difference in B/D ratio is lessened by a more efficient keel/ballast, but not all.

The older D40 performance had 3.90m of beam, weighted 7800kg and had a B/D of 36%. The new 40e has about the same beam, weights 7950kg and has a 30% of B/D ratio.

The boat is better designed in what regards hull design (transom), keel and the overall performance will be slightly better around the cans but in what regards the conditions that have been described (upwind with waves) and as a bluewater boat with good coastal abilities, the old design was just better. It had more rocker, a much bigger B/D ratio and in what regards cruising the differences in speed would be really small.

For the guys that are looking for a 5 to 8 years old 40ft cruiser at a very good price the "old" Dufour 40 performance is one of the best options, at least in my opinion.

Regata Chocolat Factory. Maresme 2010 from Vicente Arregui on Vimeo.

Regards

Paulo

 

[PCP]

Vendee Globe.

I don't remember of any year where the competition was so tight. This is racing at the most higher level, those guys are given 100% and I have some difficulty in understanding how the 4 first can maintain that rhythm.

Yesterday Armel was leading, then, at the middle of the night, Jean-Pierre took the lead and now is François that is leading again after having been 3th for a week or so. Incredible racing

The three first are separated by 16Nm and the 4th is only at 69Nm from the 3th.

Drag race again for the three fist that are sailing at almost 20k and sommer will be sailing faster then that. Some strong winds ahead

Vendée Globe 2012-2013 - Tracking

The story of the day, Le Cam dived to free is boat from a net:

Jean Le Cam (SynerCiel) realised last night that he was slowing down and that all was not well with his Bruce Farr designed Open 60. After a thorough examination of his boat, and asking himself many questions about the set up, he realised that his problem was below the waterline. The following morning, he checked under his hull and realised a fishing net was stuck around his lower part of his keel.

After three failed attempts to get rid of the net by moving his boat, the SynerCiel skipper eventually decided that he was left with no choice but to dive under it, which took around thirty minutes at 10am GMT this morning. He stopped the boat, put on his scuba diving equipment and took his knife with him. Everything went well and SynerCiel is now back in the race.

At midday, Jean Le Cam called his team and explained: "After trying everything I could to get rid of that net, I had no choice, I had to dive. I geared up, stopped the boat, and went for it. At first I tried to cut it all at once but it just wasn't working. I said to myself 's**t, that's not good'. So I cut one part after the other and it worked out. It was a huge net!"

Despite being born to sail Jean Le Cam, nicknamed 'Le Roi Jean', or King Jean, does not like swimming at all, so it was very grumpy King that was forced to make like a rebellious fish, and cut himself free of the net today.

The incident has cost him a few miles and a place in the rankings to Mike Golding but he is now back in action and returns to his the warpath.

Day 23 highlights - Sunday, December 2, 2012 por VendeeGlobeTV