I want to share something with you guys and I want to know IF you have ever experienced anything like this....We are New to the sailing world and love it....we chose to live aboard our boat for MANY reasons...well...we found this awesome Marina in Fernandina Beach that is run by the city......anyway...they told us the live aboard rate was going to go up $200 a month! Is there opposition to live aboards or is this an isolated case?
Opposition to liveaboards
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Hawaiigirl
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Unfortunately I have seen enough drunks on boats doing this that it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth. They become loud and infringe on the solitude of the experience, hell I even want them gone.
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True, but they equally take the form of both liveaboards and weekend warriors. I suppose, most of us have been unintentionally guilty at some point. A good sundowner and some start to speak loudly and don't notice that the music travels further when the wind noise drops. Its only when they go way into the night that I begin to think they don't care.
Wow, that's really high for a liveaboard fee in Florida. My add-on fee is $100 a month which is fairly standard in Florida. Electric is metered, but wifi/cable is free and we have a nice lounge with computers, tv and I believe there's an exercise room.
I really don't mind the fee since the marina has done a lot of improvements over the last couple years. New docks, repaved the parking lots, renovating the laundry and showers, etc.
If it's municipal I wonder if the city is hurting for funds and trying for a cash grab.
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Thanx, Joe. I know we've had our share of honest differences of opinion online over the years, but ultimately, we both want the same thing ... good cruising experiences for all.
BTW, like you, we prefer working yards to resort marinas. Except for the one we were at where the yard workers started drinking hard and fast promptly at 5:01 every Friday night, and one of them in particular became a mean, angry drunk by the time we took the dog for her last walk of the evening, and there was no way to avoid passing the group. I wasn't sorry to see him fired.
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Our club charges 200 a month for liveaboards. The winter water lines are only necesaary because of them as the regualr dock water is turned off at the end of November- February.
In addition I dont see that a fee is unreasonable as the liveaboards are getting away with not paying property taxes, which fund schools here. In setting rent for apts that is a consideration for the renting charge.
I also see no problem with an HOA and live in a community where the HOA are memebers of the community. The diversity oif the board helps prevent any one individual with abberant strict conformity rules from getting to out of hand. On the other hand the HOA enforcement of some of the community rules keeps our property values higher tha similar communities nearby without them, helps manage the snow removeal and landscaping of the common areas in our community as well as the pool and clubhouse area. No one forces you to live here and if you dont want to comply with the HOA then purchase a house/ townhouse somewhere else.
Dave
In addition I dont see that a fee is unreasonable as the liveaboards are getting away with not paying property taxes, which fund schools here. In setting rent for apts that is a consideration for the renting charge.
I also see no problem with an HOA and live in a community where the HOA are memebers of the community. The diversity oif the board helps prevent any one individual with abberant strict conformity rules from getting to out of hand. On the other hand the HOA enforcement of some of the community rules keeps our property values higher tha similar communities nearby without them, helps manage the snow removeal and landscaping of the common areas in our community as well as the pool and clubhouse area. No one forces you to live here and if you dont want to comply with the HOA then purchase a house/ townhouse somewhere else.
Dave
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I wouldn't consider a liveaboard fee to be opposition. I live aboard, and I definitely use more of the water, restrooms, administrative staff, mail, and parking than most of the other tenants. That's not hard to do here, though, since most of the boats are documented in Arizona I've never seen them move--the only people ever on those boats are hired to wash them!
What does seem to be opposition is the limitation. I don't know about other places, but San Diego County only allows a marina to have 10% of its slips live aboard. This sucks when there are slips available but the marina is already at 10%.
I'm moving back home to Hawaii soon, and I've been having a hard time finding a liveaboard slip so far.
What does seem to be opposition is the limitation. I don't know about other places, but San Diego County only allows a marina to have 10% of its slips live aboard. This sucks when there are slips available but the marina is already at 10%.
I'm moving back home to Hawaii soon, and I've been having a hard time finding a liveaboard slip so far.
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There are some places here too, that limit the percentage of liveaboard slips. They claim it has to do with limited infrastructure such as parking, pumpouts, electric etc. But if that were truly the case, I'd assume the appropriate percentages would be determined by each individual marina based on their circumstances, not county-wide. So I wonder...
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Jaye,
I dont see it the same way you do. I dont beleive its a misconception at all.
While yes our overall fees to members of the club help pay the property taxes, they dont use the services. Trash collection, snow removal and municipal services like fire and police would be minimal ay MYC from October through March if there were no lived aboards in our club. We would not need postal delivery or sewerage either. We would need bathrooms heated 12 months per year, The school bus would not have to stop at the club if there were no liveaboards. It would not be correct to compare it to a rental property.
Maybe the way I have phrased it is not correct. I beleive in user fees. The liveaboards use the club, the services, the facilities and the municpal facilities more than most club members who are only present 2/3 days per week for 7 months of the year. Because of this their fair share of the burden of running the club is greater thus the fee. When MYC dsecided to permit liveaboards, we knew we would incurr greater costs. The liveaboards consume more of the clubs resources as well as the communities as opposed to when there were no liveaboards.
In no way do I not want liveaboards at our club...there is one right next to me. I am all for it in a limited basis, and we limit it to 10 % of our 144 slips available. They do keep an eye on my boat as it is left in the water all year most of the winters. This being said, I feel they use the facility more than I do and therefore should be charged accordingly.
Dave
I dont see it the same way you do. I dont beleive its a misconception at all.
While yes our overall fees to members of the club help pay the property taxes, they dont use the services. Trash collection, snow removal and municipal services like fire and police would be minimal ay MYC from October through March if there were no lived aboards in our club. We would not need postal delivery or sewerage either. We would need bathrooms heated 12 months per year, The school bus would not have to stop at the club if there were no liveaboards. It would not be correct to compare it to a rental property.
Maybe the way I have phrased it is not correct. I beleive in user fees. The liveaboards use the club, the services, the facilities and the municpal facilities more than most club members who are only present 2/3 days per week for 7 months of the year. Because of this their fair share of the burden of running the club is greater thus the fee. When MYC dsecided to permit liveaboards, we knew we would incurr greater costs. The liveaboards consume more of the clubs resources as well as the communities as opposed to when there were no liveaboards.
In no way do I not want liveaboards at our club...there is one right next to me. I am all for it in a limited basis, and we limit it to 10 % of our 144 slips available. They do keep an eye on my boat as it is left in the water all year most of the winters. This being said, I feel they use the facility more than I do and therefore should be charged accordingly.
Dave
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Dave, I definitely believe in *user* fees for liveaboards, because we both use, and desire, services. What I objected to was your statement that we don't pay property taxes. We, like you, subsidize the property taxes of the place(s) we keep our boats.
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This is no different than an HOA with rules or communities over 55. While I beleive anchoring in the water is free and is everyones right as long as you arent blocking channels and polluting, I dont beleive it written that it is a right to be able to dock your boat permanently whereever you feel you want to. From what I have seen, most marinas do not even want to deal with this issue so most do not permit liveaboards. I beleive the decision is strictly a financial one as was the decision in our club. It was not meant to discriminate against them as a group and assign a social stigma to them. We dont want more than 10% because it would create even more changes in our clubs dynamics and incur greater charges thus increase our fees as well as decreaase the life expectancy of the facility. If 270 people use the club 200 days out of the year and 30 365 days per year as it is now, the finanacial impact and life expetancy of the infrastructure would be far different than if the 150 poeple used the club 365 days per year and the other 150 used it 200 days per year. In additon by having an extra 120 people living full time in the county the county services would need to be increased ( schools, police, fire, trash) which would mean the budget would need to be adjusted for the county to handle the extra 120 people living there, which usually means the taxes would go up for everyone. Our fees are for basic property taxes on a facility which is not used 365 days oper year. It seems fair that the people who are incurring the extra costs should pay for them. Thats what a user fee is.
This is strictly a fiinancial decision not meant to attach any social agenda to a person wanting to live on the boat. To beleive that all individuals should pay equally by their marina fees for the county taxes when one group lives there all of ther time and the majority part time....like some have said in the presdiential debates...just doesnt add up. Do the math. Marinas and our club are finanacial profit making businesses. They shouldnt have to absorb losses or pass them on to spread them amongst other memebers. People who use....should pay.
Dave
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Dave,
My "footprint" at my marina is minimal and wouldn't justify the extra fees that you're talking about. I feel that this is the difference between a resort marina and a working yard like the one WnW and I stay at. I don't think you can directly compare the two environments.
I consume slightly more water than a non-liveaboard and less electricity than some non-liveaboards! How? Because the non-resident yacht owners keep their cabin A/C running year-round, to keep their cabins dry and mildew-free. I barely used my A/C in the summer, and I won't need much heat this winter.
I cook with alcohol and a 700 watt microwave oven. I use a laptop or my smartphone. My lights use less power and there are fewer of them. Trash pick-up for the marina is no more or less frequent than if none of us lived aboard. It's the same dumpster and we don't fill it up any more frequently. The school bus stop is at the head of the street, and it would still be the case even if none of us lived aboard. I believe that our water lines are going to be winterized and shutdown regardless of us liveaboards. If we want water in our tanks, we'll have to schlep it down to our boats.
I have consumed exactly "zero" staff time since I've moved in at the marina. My mates and I help each other out for the repairs we need. The crabbers and fishermen who use my marina cause more havoc on the facilities and bathhouse than the liveaboards do, and there are over 25 of us!
Conversely, if I lived aboard at a resort marina, I expect that I would consume more facilities and staff time than I do at my "yard" marina. I'd expect water year-round, club house access and services, etc, etc.
My "footprint" at my marina is minimal and wouldn't justify the extra fees that you're talking about. I feel that this is the difference between a resort marina and a working yard like the one WnW and I stay at. I don't think you can directly compare the two environments.
I consume slightly more water than a non-liveaboard and less electricity than some non-liveaboards! How? Because the non-resident yacht owners keep their cabin A/C running year-round, to keep their cabins dry and mildew-free. I barely used my A/C in the summer, and I won't need much heat this winter.
I cook with alcohol and a 700 watt microwave oven. I use a laptop or my smartphone. My lights use less power and there are fewer of them. Trash pick-up for the marina is no more or less frequent than if none of us lived aboard. It's the same dumpster and we don't fill it up any more frequently. The school bus stop is at the head of the street, and it would still be the case even if none of us lived aboard. I believe that our water lines are going to be winterized and shutdown regardless of us liveaboards. If we want water in our tanks, we'll have to schlep it down to our boats.
I have consumed exactly "zero" staff time since I've moved in at the marina. My mates and I help each other out for the repairs we need. The crabbers and fishermen who use my marina cause more havoc on the facilities and bathhouse than the liveaboards do, and there are over 25 of us!
Conversely, if I lived aboard at a resort marina, I expect that I would consume more facilities and staff time than I do at my "yard" marina. I'd expect water year-round, club house access and services, etc, etc.
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WnW's marina ( having been there a number of times) is more of a resort mariana than my club. It is one of the finest facilities I have ever been to, anywhere and IMHO outdoes HHNorth&South, Spring Cove, and Mears Marinas. It is also a working yard which allows that and has many of the Annapolis Boat brokers offices on the premisis.
I do appreciate the footprint of where you are, but do not think that is the norm for most of the liveaboards. Since you do not incur addition costs for services there would be no need for them to charge you extra.
Dave
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Well, of course the ideal would be to have metered electric at the slips, even though it is more of a hassle for the marina staff, it's the most fair approach. Like Bubblehead, our marina has folks who don't live aboard, but leave the A/C running all season while the boat is unattended at the dock - why should they pay less electric than the guy who lives aboard, but is out cruising most of the summer? Because our boat is set up for cruising, we get most of our power from solar, while the weekenders' boats haven't invested in those systems. In our marina's case there is also a charterboat fleet that operates out of this marina. They are the KINGS of using staff time. Because they are vacationers and haven't learned the subtleties of the system, as opposed to the fulltime liveaboards, those charter folks generate copious amounts of trash. (A disproportionate amount of that is empty booze bottles, but that's a whole 'nother issue. They are on vacation, after all.) I think the point is that generalizations about which group uses resources, and how, are problematic.
On your other point, Dave, I'm actually agreeing with you - thereby showing the problems with communication by text without benefit of tone and body language. Of course, your club, and any other marine entity, should be able to determine for itself and set the amount of liveaboard slips, if any, that it feels appropriate for its character, infrastructure, and economics. What is weird is the situation LauderBoy described in San Diego, that there's a county-wide determination that all marinas in the county can support exactly 10% liveaboards, regardless of their differences in character, size, support structure, etc. I think those decisions should be left to the individual marina and their circumstances - 25%? 90%? None at all? The more so in San Diego, where winter isn't a factor given their nice weather year-round.
On your other point, Dave, I'm actually agreeing with you - thereby showing the problems with communication by text without benefit of tone and body language. Of course, your club, and any other marine entity, should be able to determine for itself and set the amount of liveaboard slips, if any, that it feels appropriate for its character, infrastructure, and economics. What is weird is the situation LauderBoy described in San Diego, that there's a county-wide determination that all marinas in the county can support exactly 10% liveaboards, regardless of their differences in character, size, support structure, etc. I think those decisions should be left to the individual marina and their circumstances - 25%? 90%? None at all? The more so in San Diego, where winter isn't a factor given their nice weather year-round.
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The liveaboard "debate" (for lack of a better word) is no different than most topics of discussion in that as long as everyone involved recognizes the validity of the "other side's" viewpoint, things tend to work themselves out.
It's funny how we tend to categorize the other side. Not picking on you, Joethecobbler, but I noticed in your last post that you have on-the-surface become that which you rail against. Going to a marina, expressing interest in dock space with no intention of moving there just to watch the owners/operators "grovel"? Really.....lol? I mean, if that's fun for you, that's fine but it's probably not fair to denigrate "those people" if you walk the same walk, so-to-speak. Again, not picking on you, but from the outside looking in, it seems like both sides of that equation has room for improvement.
To each their own I always say, as long as we recognize one side is no better/worse than the other and we all pay our fair share. If a marina doesn't charge extra for liveaboards, that just means that all of the users pay for decisions of a few.
It's funny how we tend to categorize the other side. Not picking on you, Joethecobbler, but I noticed in your last post that you have on-the-surface become that which you rail against. Going to a marina, expressing interest in dock space with no intention of moving there just to watch the owners/operators "grovel"? Really.....lol? I mean, if that's fun for you, that's fine but it's probably not fair to denigrate "those people" if you walk the same walk, so-to-speak. Again, not picking on you, but from the outside looking in, it seems like both sides of that equation has room for improvement.
To each their own I always say, as long as we recognize one side is no better/worse than the other and we all pay our fair share. If a marina doesn't charge extra for liveaboards, that just means that all of the users pay for decisions of a few.
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This is an admitted highjack, but I would love to start a thread that would get all over this.
I'm the first to enjoy a cocktail at the end of the day and am happy that yard employees do so too. However, drinking in plain sight of the customers at 5:01 (make that 12:01 on Saturdays) is ridiculous. Generally, who cares. But the next time they screw up some maintenance (AND THEY WILL), the only thought I have in my mind is them sitting around drunk with empty Coors Light cans all around them. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Bad management, which is grossly typical in the marine industry.
I think everybody just wants to believe they are in an industry that is laid back and everyone is there for fun. However, they are still in business.
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I believe that the 10% live aboard occupancy rate in California marinas is state wide for all areas falling under the Coastal Commission’s jurisdiction. Up here in San Francisco we also have to follow the dictates of the Bay Conservation and Development Commission (BCDC). Heck, Alameda even stretched a cable across Packer Cove at one time in order to discourage the “homeless” from anchoring there.
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I think lots of industries have this problem.
This is the same problem in the restaurant business when employees finish work and go to the bar while the restuarant is still open.
I know you are a pilot...I must say it is very disconcerting when I travel ( fairly frequently) for business and am on a layover or between connecting flights seeing the pilots, crew flight atendants drinking in the airport restraurant lounges.
+1 you are right here and also about letting each decide. A blanket rule without an overreaching problem is usually not a good idea.
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There has been a few times we have needed to stay in a marina and have been fortunate to stay in a marina that would make great liveaboard marina.
Bridgeton Harbour Marina near New Bern, has a great harbourmaster and we meet a dozen of the liveaboards that treated us like family. very nice facilities including free laundry.
Bridgeton Harbour Marina near New Bern, has a great harbourmaster and we meet a dozen of the liveaboards that treated us like family. very nice facilities including free laundry.
I really don't like the county/state-wide percentage limits on liveaboards. I don't think there's anything wrong with putting down facility requirements(pumpout, showers, etc), but there's nothing inherently wrong with a marina that wants 100% liveaboards if they set themselves up to support it.
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