[chucklesR]

Here you go:

Coast Guard Boardings and Your Fourth Amendment Rights, Part 1 | Sail Feed

As I said earlier -

Folks, get the facts, not a defense lawyer's view point. They have the commitment of the chicken in a ham and egg breakfast, you are the ham. They make money from you, you lose and go to jail.

Follow the law and you have no fears.

 

[sd1953]

I've never been boarded by the Coasties, but when lobstering in the Florida Keys we have been regularly "inspected" by the "Grouper Troopers" (Florida Fish and Game). They have always been polite and professional. They have an enormous responsibility and deal with people all day who are lots less than professional or even polite (and some are drunk too). The stories I hear from folks about getting around the bag limits and the things they do to our natural resources always makes me offer the officers a cold water and my warm regards. As long as there is a percentage of the population who will abuse our shared natural resources to the point that they will destroy it, we as a community have to police them. But we cannot police them without allowing the police to watch us as well.

 

[patrickbryant]

Boats have been a major vehicle of smuggling for centuries
Other than the long historical perspective, so have planes, cars, backpacks/purses and pockets. So what is your point????

My point is: warrantless searches of boats have been going on since long before you were ever born. There's nothing new about it. It's an ancient practice. Probably the first day someone hollowed out a log to make the first boat, there was someone in authority wanting to look inside it. It's just part of the rich and ancient traditions of boating. You chose to engage in an activity that includes the likelihood of being boarded by the Coast Guard. That's your right. And it's also your right to complain about it. But you are only "baying at the moon" -- it's not going to change. You might as well complain about the sun's habit of rising in the east. If it really bugs you, you might want to consider doing something else that doesn't include a long tradition of warrantless searches. It'd be better for your blood pressure.

To quote an old Viking song: "Vem kan segla förutan vind?" -- who can sail without the wind? You're wanting to go out on the water free from warrantless searches is as whimsical as trying to sail without the wind. Good luck.

From a constitutional standpoint: there are only nine people in the United Stares who can decide whether the practice is constitutional. I encourage you to take it up with them, but ironically, the most conservative members of that body are the least likely to side with your position. You might want to read this case that came before the Supreme Court to appreciate what you're up against: http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/462/579/. Quoting the first sentence of that decision: "Title 19 U.S.C. § 1581(a) authorizes customs officers to board any vessel at any time and at any place in the United States to examine the vessel's manifest and other documents." I'll let the lawyers among us explain the Court's past decisions on the topic.

Sailing a boat is not a terrorist act.

Neither is flying an airplane. But as pithy as it may be, you can't sum up the whole situation in one sentence. Real life is messier than that. We pilots have had to operate under a microscope ever since 9/11. Would you propose we stop doing background checks on foreign flight students? It's very inconvenient for them. They have to wait weeks before they can start instruction... The world has changed. Get over it.

 

[tomperanteau]

Step aboard and you do lose all your rights. Why? Because they have "policies" that circumvent the Bill of Rights. That is why the politicians invented policies and regulations. They can steal your rights and money and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[zedboy]

Step aboard and you do lose all your rights. Why? Because they have "policies" that circumvent the Bill of Rights. That is why the politicians invented policies and regulations. They can steal your rights and money and there is nothing you can do about it.

Interestingly, you don't even need to step aboard to have fun with Customs: the usual rules don't apply when going crossing a border. They can search & seize without probable cause (which is the limiting factor for the highway patrolman, who has no right to search your car - he can look at what he can see through the window, and act based on that alone).

 

[patrickbryant]

Well, you could write your congressman ;-)

Here're the laws on Customs boarding/searching/seizing: 19 USC § 1581 - Boarding vessels | LII / Legal Information Institute

The laws have been on the books for a long time. Probably before many readers here were born. And the laws really just codify what Customs has always had the power to do. Those are the rules of the road. Don't like it? Don't get on a boat. Or get the laws changed.

I would not go so far as to say "you lose ALL your rights." That's an extreme perspective. And I do deeply sympathize with people whose boats are their homes.

But the Supreme Court settled this argument 29 years ago:

"In 1790, ... the First Congress clearly authorized the suspicionless boarding of vessels by Government officers, reflecting its view that such boardings are not contrary to the Fourth Amendment, which was promulgated by the same Congress."

[United States v. Villamonte-Marquez, 462 U.S. 579 (1983)]

I hate to break it to you guys who're screaming about the 4th amendment but, the SAME congress that originally passed the 4th Amendment to the constitution also said that government agents could board vessels without any suspicion!

It's amazing how these old arguments get rehashed over and over, usually by newly-minted ill-informed self-appointed constitutionalists, when the congress that wrote the 4th amendment settled the issue way back in 1790.

What we need is an explicit constitutional right of privacy. Do a text search of the US constitution some time for the word "privacy" and see how many times it appears (zero). The ninth and tenth amendments sorta, kinda, indirectly, give you the vague impression that there might be such a thing as a right to privacy; but in today's era -- we need something explicit. Constitutional scholars argue that since the government isn't explicitly allowed to violate your privacy, then that means you have a right to privacy (a bad case of circular logic in my opinion). But here we have it: all it takes is government legislation that grants the power to invade your privacy -- and that right dissolves into thin air. Legislation like what Congress passed, in 1790. Privacy is a very "soft" right in this county that can be easily brushed aside because it isn't explicitly granted in our constitution.

I lived in Sweden for two years (great sailing!), and studied their constitution. Sweden has a very explicit right-to-privacy, and Sweden is the "gold standard" for privacy laws today. The Europeans have recent painful memories of Big Brother snooping through people's stuff (WWII, Nazis, and Stalinists). But the neo-pseudo-conservatives in this country will have nothin' to do with none of them there Socialist privacy laws. How else are they going to ruin people's lives over what they do in their bedrooms? So, until attitudes change, we're stuck.

 

[Brent Swain]

As I said earlier -

Folks, get the facts, not a defense lawyer's view point. They have the commitment of the chicken in a ham and egg breakfast, you are the ham. They make money from you, you lose and go to jail.

Follow the law and you have no fears.

Insist they follow the law and law breaking on their part is less likely to become standard procedure. To do that you have an obligation to know the law. Allowing oneself to be bullied encourages them to bully others, making you an accomplice, the kind of person we have to thank for our loss of freedom and civil rights.
Neville Chamberlain was no hero!

 

[patrickbryant]

Insist they follow the law and law breaking on their part is less likely to become standard procedure. To do that you have an obligation to know the law. Allowing oneself to be bullied encourages them to bully others, making you an accomplice, the kind of person we have to thank for our loss of freedom and civil rights.
Neville Chamberlain was no hero!

I couldn't agree more. Well said!

 

[JSL3]

I hope the OP gets back soon. Or did I miss part 2 already?

 

[CalebD]

As I said earlier -

Folks, get the facts, not a defense lawyer's view point. They have the commitment of the chicken in a ham and egg breakfast, you are the ham. They make money from you, you lose and go to jail.

Follow the law and you have no fears.

Are you calling me a ham, Chuckles?
Or are you saying don't eat eggs in front of an angry hen?
I am all scrambled by your analogy, but I like it!

I suppose you mean that there is really no chicken in a ham and egg breakfast. An egg could become a chicken though!
Mmmmh! Ham!

 

[therapy23]

Here you go:

Coast Guard Boardings and Your Fourth Amendment Rights, Part 1 | Sail Feed

Great link, thanks.

But they are the only agency that can do that.................?

My understanding is that other agencies (maybe not DEA but I think they too) need a warrant. Sheriff, city police, fish and game etc.

 

[Minnewaska]

Can you imagine, as part of your job, you have to enter a strangers boat? As time passes, you learn that many of those strangers actually have something to hide. Most are probably lack of PFDs, but you'll find contraband, etc, in your career. Can you imagine getting up in the morning and wondering if today will be the day that one of those boarding results in the crew firing shots? Will it appear more likely from the crew that is mouthing off and angry?

We can debate whether they should have the authority to do so, but the boarding officers are doing what they are told, not what they decided on a whim. How much would you need to be paid to risk your life at your job? Pretty brave in my book.

 

[AKscooter]

many of those strangers actually have something to hide. Please cite your source number of boardings and percentages of contraband found.

Pretty brave in my book. Lets see what an average boarding party carries as far as weapons at the ready. Not forgetting to include the yahoo in the bow with a machine gun pointed at the "suspects" Now lets see what the "suspects" are packing...... Brave my arse...... Coast Guard aren't victims, they choose their job as do any other law enforcement groups. If they want to board I doubt anyone is gonna stop them.......ever......Although I would love to see them board a foreign trawler in the Aleutian region. Naw...that is not gonna happen.....lol Since I am a citizen of the US and somewhere there is this document saying that they do not have the right...then yea...I will say something.......

 

[Minnewaska]

Do I really need to go find a citing that the USCG finds contraband? That's just stubborn.

I have a good friend whose daughter is currently applying to the Coast Guard academy. I'm sure, in her career, she will be asked to do boardings. I am also absolutely certain that this lovely young lady, who is a great student and loves the water, has no intent to be the bully she will be characterized as by the stubborn. She will have to do her job.

Also, before one throws a stone at the bravery of someone who enters a room, without knowing what or who is waiting for them, I would like to know they've had the ball$ to try it. Armed or not.

Consider this. Over your entire career, there is going to be just one single day that you are going to walk into your cozy office and there is going to be someone in there with a gun that knows he needs to get past you to stay out of jail. Just one day and you don't know which it will be. You keeping the job? You can take a gun with you, if you think it changes anything.

 

[Capt.aaron]

Do I really need to go find a citing that the USCG finds contraband? That's just stubborn.

I have a good friend whose daughter is currently applying to the Coast Guard academy. I'm sure, in her career, she will be asked to do boardings. I am also absolutely certain that this lovely young lady, who is a great student and loves the water, has no intent to be the bully she will be characterized as by the stubborn. She will have to do her job.

Also, before one throws a stone at the bravery of someone who enters a room, without knowing what or who is waiting for them, I would like to know they've had the ball$ to try it. Armed or not.

Consider this. Over your entire career, there is going to be just one single day that you are going to walk into your cozy office and there is going to be someone in there with a gun that knows he needs to get past you to stay out of jail. Just one day and you don't know which it will be. You keeping the job? You can take a gun with you, if you think it changes anything.

The poor girl, My heart goes out to her. Just out of curiosity, where did she grow up and what do you think prompted her interest in the Coast Guard? I've been doing a personal survey/ research. I alway's ask Coasties where they are from and why they joined. They alway's join with the best of intensions and usually they end up disapointed with how it actually is.
I'd like to know how many coast gaurdsman have died at the hands of an agressor in the situation of a boarding. I'm betting close to none. They do fall in the line of Rescue which is the highest form of selfless sacrifice and should be honored to the highest degree. The boarding crew's are a different troup than the Rescue. The rescue crew's are like the elite or special force. We've all seen the swimmer movie with Kevin and Ashton. We need a Coast Guard, no doubt, and their boarding procedures, once you've gone through them, are mild. They don't bully or intimidate. When off shore it's almost commical the green faced, wide eyed kid's they send over in the orange dinghy, It is usually me showing them some compassion because they usually want to be there even less than I want them. They're just doing what they are told. In some cases I know more about what's going on than they do, it's seem's like most boardings I've been through are some sort of training excersize.

 

[Minnewaska]

Just out of curiosity, where did she grow up and what do you think prompted her interest in the Coast Guard.

She grew up on the Finger Lakes and Lake Ontario. Can't speak to her motivation.

.....they usually want to be there even less than I want them. They're just doing what they are told.....

That's my point for sure.

 

[Sal Paradise]

Re: brave

Brave is sailing a Cat 22 to Belize. Alone. Man that does take some cuhones. I'd like to hear the tale for sure, with pictures.

 

[aeventyr60]

That's my point for sure.[/QUOTE]

And she accepts the risks without question.

 

[patrickbryant]

many of those strangers actually have something to hide. Please cite your source number of boardings and percentages of contraband found.

I realize you are just saying: "show me your facts and numbers" but, you are demanding that posters here become accountants and statisticians. If you really want exact numbers, I suggest you file a Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) request with the Coast Guard - which any US citizen has the right to do - and once you obtain those numbers, come back here to refute any inaccurate statements.

Demanding those exact numbers up front, when honest people are exercising common sense and expressing those facts in good faith, is unreasonable. We can't possibly carry on a dialog if we need every number down to the penny before we express an opinion.

 

[cherev]

"We can debate whether they should have the authority to do so, but the boarding officers are doing what they are told, not what they decided on a whim. How much would you need to be paid to risk your life at your job? Pretty brave in my book."

There's no 'debate'; USCG boarding a vessel, moored or in motion, while wielding M-16s is an armed home invasion if you live aboard. If there's no probable cause, they've committed a criminal act. No bravery involved when an elderly sailing couple is sitting in their cockpit and wondering what the heck is going on.

If you don't set out to daily harass and molest passersby, then no risk is incurred.

As for "doing what they're told", isn't that the 'defense' made at Nuremberg by some Nazis?

No, the USA is in a very bad way, for it's evident that the Soviets and Nazis actually won the war, ideologically and practically, and those lives expended in the "defense of freedom" were ultimately wasted. Red Dawn is thus become a documentary, with daily episodes videoed by police dashboard and intersection surveillance cameras. Except the children must shoot each other.