[btrayfors]

Dan,

Satphones cannot and will not ever replace SSB. It's not a question of technology, i.e., reliability or cost or coverage or access to the Internet. It's a question of typology.

Satphones are point-to-point. They connect you with ONE OTHER point.

Radios are point-to-multiple point. There are over 1,000,000 licensed hams in the world and they are located all over the world. When you pick up the mic on a ham radio, you have the potential of talking to, and/or being heard or overheard by many, many stations. Ditto for marine SSB, though the community is much smaller.

You have only to do some active cruising with a SSB or a ham radio to know. Or, if you're landbound, listen into the marine SSB and the ham SSB nets: the Waterway Net on 7268LSB daily at 0745 EDT; the Cruisheimer's Net daily on 6227USB at 0830EDT; the Maritime Mobile Net daily on 14300USB noon to 9PM; etc., etc.

On these nets, boats check in to report their positions; learn where other boats are; hook up with them; obtain the latest weather reports; obtain help when they are in difficulty; talk to the Coast Guard in real emergencies (yes, the Coast Guard comes up on the ham nets); check propagation; get info on just about anything imaginable; etc., etc.

On a given day, some 50 or so cruising boats will check in on Cruiseheimers'; about 20 or more will check in on the Waterway Net; many others will check in on the MM Net, the Hurricane Net, the Safety and Security Net in the Caribbean, the NW Caribbean Net, the Pacific Seafarers Net, the Southeast Asian Net, and many, many others.

You can't do any of this with a satphone.

And, despite advances in technology, you never will be able to.

Bill

 

[Sapperwhite]

So, I can transmit from a marine SSB transceiver on ham bands if I have the proper class ham license? That is, if the radio can operate on ham bands (and I already have my ships station license, and the SSB operator's license), can I also have a ham license (proper class for said ham band) and use the SSB rig on those ham bands it can pick up?

Is a good marine SSB type accepted for ham use also is what I'm getting at (provided you are ham licensed)

Thanks in advance btrayfors, I'm sure you've said it a thousand times already

 

[sailingdog]

Sapper-

I don't believe the FCC requires Ham Radio gear to be Type Accepted like the Marine SSB does, since Ham radio operator's often build their own equipment. Bill will correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[danielgoldberg]

btrayfors, I take your points, and I didn't mean to sugges that SSB's all will get thrown in the garbage within the next 6 months are anything like that. But, whereas historically an SSB has been pretty much required gear for bluewater trips or long distance cruising, I believe that will change.

Every single thing you mentioned in fact can be done via satphone and/or the Internet. You say that 50 to 100 cruisers check in on netsn every day; I'm sure you're right. But that exact same thing can be done via an Internet board. Right this very moment cruisers can use a satellite tracking device so that their positions are tracked on the Internet, updated hourly (check out www.iboattrack.com). That kind of thing will become more prevalent, and when it does the need to check in with SSB nets will be diminshed, if not eliminated. Same holds true for weather routing and anything else that you can think of for which you would need an SSB net.

Likewise, there are party lines for phones, conference call capabilities, IM, chat rooms for real time multi-party discussions, and the list goes on and on. While SSB's remain incredibly useful today, I believe that really will change. There is a social aspect of cruisers' nets right now, but that really can be replicated with phone calls. It may even get more social with conference videocalls via Skype or another provider.

I'm really not kidding. Just a few short years ago the only way to coordinate with friends, clubs, events, etc. on the water was to schedule times to connect via VHF. Now, you hardly ever use the VHF; you just flip open your cell phone. That's exactly the same situation that you have on the high seas now with SSB, and that's only because satphone technology and cost (and they go hand in hand) just haven't gotten there yet.

Again, I mean no disrespect, and we're all just prognosticating here so who knows what the future will hold, but I think the SSB radio has seen its xenith and is on the backside of its useful lifespan as a technology.

 

[Sapperwhite]

Sapper-

I don't believe the FCC requires Ham Radio gear to be Type Accepted like the Marine SSB does, since Ham radio operator's often build their own equipment. Bill will correct me if I'm wrong.

I got that from earlier. I'm asking if you can use a marine SSB rig to transmit on the ham nets that the marine ssb rig can pick up, provided you are fully licensed to do so (holding ship station, marine ssb, and proper class level ham license).

If yes, do you use your ham call sign when on the ham bands, but using the marine SSB rig? (that could get confusing)

 

[btrayfors]

Sapperwhite,

Yes. You can use the marine rig on the ham bands, if you have a ham license.

Most marine rigs -- in fact, all of them that I know about -- are capable of operating on the ham bands as well as the marine bands, though some may require special "programming".

The problem is, most marine SSBs although capable of operating on the ham bands are not very convenient. They don't have the frequency agility of ham rigs, with a few exceptions. The Icom 802 which is often advertised as being capable of both marine and ham operation indeed has a VFO which allows you to tune the bands, but it has detents and the architecture of the radio just isn't very intuitive to my mind. Many folks find it OK, though. It's probably what you're used to.

I routinely use an older marine SSB on the ham bands...a little-known Kenwood TKM-707. Great little rig. And, I choose to do so despite having at any time more than 20 other options: ham rigs, marine rigs, commercial rigs, and military rigs! I just love the 707.

On my boat, I have another little-know marine SSB: the Yaesu FT-600 alongside my Yaesu FT-900AT ham rig. It's also a fine little rig. See pic here: Gallery :: Miscellaneous 2007 :: NavStn_0140

Bill

 

[Sapperwhite]

Thanks Bill, just what I needed to know.

One other thing, I have limited space and can't have both rigs aboard. Say I get an Icom 802 and learn to live with its function on ham bands. I would have to use my ham call sign while on those ham bands correct?

 

[btrayfors]

Yes, that's correct.

While it does seem a bit complicated in the beginning, think of it this way.

A marine license allows you to transmit on the marine bands only.

A ham license allows you to transmit on the ham bands only.

You can listen anywhere.

You can use any radio on the ham bands.

On the marine bands, you can only legally use a radio which has been type-accepted for use on the marine bands.

In an extreme emergency, you can use any radio on any band to attract attention and get needed help.

Many sailors routinely use ham radios on the marine bands (illegally). They may or may not get away with it over time.

Bill

 

[btrayfors]

Daniel,

I take your points, but find it just a little sad.

I guess it boils down to whether or not you believe that texting via the Internet is somehow better or more desirable or more fun than actually communicating directly with someone.

Maybe it's a generational thing. Hmmm....would I rather talk to someone in the flesh or on the phone, or should I just text him/her? Damn...my thumbs are getting sore, guess I'll have to resort to the old technology and make a call

NB: not every vessel afloat has a computer. Or a text screen. Or connection to the Internet. Or, thank god, wants to.

But almost all have a VHF. And, long-distance cruisers have a SSB which they can switch on in the morning and listen to while they're making breakfast, fixing a piece of broken gear, herding the kids, looking over new charts, or eating some papaya with lime juice. Try that while you're glued to the keyboard

Bill

 

[Plumper]

Another comparison to make too is VHF and cell phones. VHF still is used, but it's used a whole lot less because of cell phones. Indeed, radio the coast guard today, and the first question you get is whether you have a cell phone on board that can be used to call them or they you. That tells the whole story right there.

This assumption is incorrect. The reason the Coast Guard pushes most non life threatening emergencies (in cell areas) over to a cell phone is to keep the radio frequencies clear for the critical emergencies. You are also being very myopic in your view. There is more to the world than US coastal waters and cell phones. In most of the world, dialing 911 on a sat phone won't get you jack.

 

[Plumper]

Sapper-

I don't believe the FCC requires Ham Radio gear to be Type Accepted like the Marine SSB does, since Ham radio operator's often build their own equipment. Bill will correct me if I'm wrong.

The answer to this will vary with radio authorities around the world. Here in Canada, a Hams radio station is called an experimental radio station and with the advanced license building gear is encouraged.

 

[btrayfors]

Dog,

Yes, Plumper is correct. It will vary from country to country.

In the U.S., Amateur Radio transmitters do not require type acceptance although external HF power amplifiers and kits do require type acceptance.

However, as in all things where the government has a hand, it's not quite so simple.

All RF-emitting devices require FCC "approval" or "certification" in some form or other. This is to ensure that they don't create unwanted interference with other devices. There's a certification procedure, a notification procedure, a verification procedure, a declaration of conformity, etc., etc. The type-acceptance procedure generally pertains to radios used in the various licensed services: marine, aircraft, police, land mobile, etc. (but not, as stated above, to ham radios except for amplifiers).

You can read all about it here: ARRLWeb: FCC Part-15 Rules: Unlicensed RF Devices

Bill

 

[danielgoldberg]

Touche (can't figure out how to get the accent)! I concede defeat on those points, that's for sure.

 

[Plumper]

btrayfors
I'm guessing you are a Ham. What is your C/S? I'm VE7GJD.

 

[btrayfors]

Hi, Gary...

Guilty, as charged

My call is WA6CCA. Been licensed since 1966.

Have done a fair amount of QRP, too, but mostly CW with wire antennas. Prefer vertical dipoles...very low vertical takeoff angle...dynamite for DX. Worked about 100 countries in a few weeks with a K2 and vertical dipoles...10 watts!

73,

Bill

 

[camaraderie]

Well...I've been off line for a few hours and coome back to find this very good thread! I will defer to Trayfors on matters technical as there are few better sources on line than Bill on this subject.
I would like to comment on some of the issues Daniel raises and the current choices for cruisers which to some extent are economic as well as practical issues.
My own equipment on our cruising was BOTH an SSB (Icom802) w/Pactor modem and sailmail e-mail access AND a globalstar satphone which provided access in the Caraibbean to N. America for about 25 cents a minute under the plan we subscribed to. Our SSB/Pactor system ran around $5000 to install completely and the satphone was bought for around $750. We used the SSB for the "chatty" functions Bill speaks of as well as for our subscription weather service with Chris Parker which was personalized voice communication each AM for our position AND daily e-mail through the Pactor. Our use of the SatPhone was for point to point land communication for personal and business needs AND after hurricane Ivan in Grenada...it became our lifeline to help as well as a lifeline for other cruisers. (The SSB came down with the mast and in any event would not have been much use given our need for point to point conversations).

With that background...what has changed since 2005 and what would I do if outfitting a boat today?
The things that have changed are:
1. A degradation in Globalstar service quality (which made many drop the service) but which may be improving a bit now and the pricing is MUCH better to entice customers back. Iridium continues to be quite reliable AN D expensive.
2. Much growth in Wifi accessibility along the coast with cellphone PC cards and most marinas offering service as well. this includes the populated areas of the Bahamas as well. This allows frequent access to e-mail, the web, and phone through Skype.

Conclusion: For voyaging along the US coast and the Bahamas...an VHF radio, an air card and a wifi equipped PC can handle all communication needs and a cheap shortwave radio receiver can keep you up with the Cruisheimers chat and weather broadcasts. SSB/ham is a nice to have but not needed $5k expense. Sat phones are really only necessary if you MUST have a way to call out AND be reached 24x7. Globalstar is unreliable in terms of ALWAYS making a connection but from recent reports...if you can wait 10 minutes...you can get a connection. Iridium remains the reliable and pricey companion...but G-star is so damn cheap it is hard to resist taking one along. Out side of the US/Caribe...I think the Iridium is the only safe choice.
*********
Crossing oceans or going far afield, I think it is still an SSB world. Someone is always listening on the distress frequencies and pactor/sailmail remains an excellent way to get your weather and other needs. If possible an Iridium phone remains a great thing to have...(Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger use one for all of their needs)...but if I had to choose i would choose the SSB.

Daniel may be right about the future of SSB and evolving technology...but I am not holding my breath. The markets are not focusing on those of us who would like cheap internet access at sea. The sat phone companies are struggling to survive and without the Pentagon...probably even Iridium would be in trouble. I think it will work a lot like satellite TV. Satellite based 2 way internet will evolve for land based opportunities...and the resulting coverage will enable cheap satellite internet for those at sea within the "shadow" of that coverage.
The technology is possible today...but there is no market that would justify the investment.

The one other thing I would add is to echo Bill's comments. When you are out cruising...the nets on the vHF and the SSB allow you to share experiences, connect with old friends, make group plans, share warnings and just plain BE a cruising community. If SSB's were cheaper...everyone would have one for this alone. Maybe that is where we'll see some progress as there is really no excuse for the prices we pay for this equipment relative to the worth of the individual components.

 

[btrayfors]

Amen, Cam. I think most folks pay entirely too much for their SSB setups.

Which is why I've stressed that you don't need to pay an arm and a leg for worldwide SSB communications capability.

See, e.g., this thread on the SSCA Board:
SSCA Discussion Board :: View topic - SERIOUS HAM SSB SETUP ON THE CHEAP

If you're a ham
and
If you're a bit inventive
and
If you're prudent
then....
You, too, can have a wonderful SSB setup aboard for as little as $300-500.

Bill

 

[btrayfors]

Why does this damned Board keep changing URL's?????

The proper one is this...I hope:

SSCA Discussion Board :: View topic - SERIOUS HAM SSB SETUP ON THE CHEAP

 

[btrayfors]

Jeez....this is really maddening...

Just search the SSCA Board for "Serious SSB Setup".

Really annoying.

B.

 

[Plumper]

Hi, Gary...

Guilty, as charged

My call is WA6CCA. Been licensed since 1966.

Have done a fair amount of QRP, too, but mostly CW with wire antennas. Prefer vertical dipoles...very low vertical takeoff angle...dynamite for DX. Worked about 100 countries in a few weeks with a K2 and vertical dipoles...10 watts!

73,

Bill

Bill,
You are way ahead of me. I got my license a couple years ago just so I could run a radio on my boat. Here in the PNW there are a couple great nets that keep track of everyone from Mexico to Alaska. Inside vancouver island it is run on VHF repeaters that run the length of the island but north or south of the Island it is on 40 meters at the crack of dawn. It is a great service and keeps everyone in touch. My little FT 817 with an end fed wire run up on a halyard keeps me in touch most of the time. Total cost was less than $600.

Hope to hear you on the air.

73

Gary