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New Balmar SmartGuage experience

26K views 296 replies 21 participants last post by  Bleemus 
#1 · (Edited)
Installed this at the beginning of the season and calibrated it to 100% charge and set it to GEL battery type, as the house was fully charged at the slip all week. My first few trips off the dock were short, so the batts never discharged below 80%.

Being away for the weekend more often now, I see discharge levels down in the 50s after a couple of days. But only twice at that level of discharge.

My odd experience, however, has to do with recharging, which may have nothing to do with the gauge.

Previously, all I had to identify charge was the Xantrex remote panel, which has three idiot lights for Bulk, Absorb and Float.

Now, I'm checking the new toy all the time, to see actual voltage and charge percentage.

The SmartGuage was not showing much increase in charge level, after running the generator for an hour or two. Previously, that would be about all I felt I needed to recharge a full days usage. It's been showing an increase of maybe 10% of capacity on a 400ah house bank. This is concerning, because I use more than that per day and I wouldn't think I would need to run the generator for more than two hours per day to keep up.

Then I noticed something on the original idiot gauges. They marched their way up from bulk to float, but the SmartGuage still said the bank was only 84% charged. Float should be 98-99, if I understand this correctly.

Could it be that the SmartGuage hasn't "learned" the house parameters yet? Remember, I've also considered that the idiot lights are wrong too.

Final symptom..... When plugged into the dock, I measure 115volts at the AC receptacles. When running the generator, I only measure 106 volts. However, in both scenarios, the SmartGuage seems out of synch with the idiot lights.
 
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#2 ·
How is the generator charging the batteries?

If it is charging through an inverter/charger or battery charger what make, model and amperage rating?

What is the charge voltage of the batteries?

What is the voltage drop at full charger output between the charger or I/C and battery bank terminals?

What brand and model are the batteries?

How old are the batteries?

From 50% SOC (on SmartGauge) how quickly do they attain target voltage eg: how quickly do they reach 14.1V (typical GEL absorption)?

What is the max charge current when you first fire up the charger?

How long does full output current last?
 
#3 · (Edited)
This is what I can do of the top of my head. I can get the rest this weekend.

How is the generator charging the batteries? Inverter/charger

If it is charging through an inverter/charger or battery charger what make, model and amperage rating? Xantrex Freedom 20

What is the charge voltage of the batteries? I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. Do you mean the Bulk charge rate? When I press the voltage button on the SmartGuage during bulk, it said 14.something. Will have to confirm.

What is the voltage drop at full charger output between the charger or I/C and battery bank terminals? Don't know, not sure I know how to check. Given that the SmartGuage is attached direct to the terminals, does it give the reading?

What brand and model are the batteries? It was a quality brand, but can't recall off the top of my head. They are Gel batteries. Four group 34, I believe.

How old are the batteries? Three years

From 50% SOC (on SmartGauge) how quickly do they attain target voltage eg: how quickly do they reach 14.1V (typical GEL absorption)? Not sure how I would know this. The idiot light, on the Xantrex panel, took hours. But, the charge rate dropped along the way and the idiot lights saying in float, when the SmartGuage says no where near the upper 90% of charge.

What is the max charge current when you first fire up the charger? Is this the 14.something you asked above?

How long does full output current last? If you're asking how much time I get from the 400ah bank, before reaching 50%, that's about two days, with two fridges running, electric heads, plotters/radios running 4-5 hrs per day, pot of coffee off the invertor, lights, etc. Of course, the engine runs in/out of the harbor for a short bit.
 
#5 ·
Thank you very much, MS. If you're ever near RI, I owe you a beer.

Admittedly, I'll need to re-read your post a few times this evening. I have a volt meter, but will get the clamp meter.

To answer one of your questions, this is the remote panel that I have:

https://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-84-2056-01-Freedom-Basic-Remote/dp/B000XBKMC2

What would you recommend for a replacement, if the invertor itself becomes the problem? I know you are no fan of the Xantrex. Remaking the battery cables, doesn't seem like fun. I doubt I'll buy the right tools, so I would probably have them made, if I swap out the unit.
 
#6 ·
Probably not indicative of the experiences of most users, but a data point all the same...
I installed a new Smartgauge this spring and it did not function. I called the company (up in WA) and their tech guy had me test the supply voltage to the meter with my digital volt meter and he declared it non-working.
He issued a return authorization to their repair facility located in Alabama. The postage to send it in was on me - I do not like that but it's their policy. They did pay shipping to send a new one back.
Seems to work now.
One other caveat: the fellow I spoke to did say that my usual practice of leaving the boat on the shore power charger when in the slip would affect the accuracy by about 10%.

Just another .02 worth, and YMMV.

Loren
 
#8 ·
....their tech guy had me test the supply voltage to the meter with my digital volt meter and he declared it non-working.....
Could you clarify this test? You tested the actual voltage of the batts, with a separate meter and compared it to the reading on the gauge, presumably with the charger off? If I even have this right, how far off was it?
 
#7 ·
Starting at 70% SOC charge running a generator for 2 hours wouldn't ever really fully charged a 400AH battery bank (as the OP has now discovered). I don't think one ever really gets their batteries fully charged with a generator unless they are willing to let it run a long time with hardy any load on it (going to charge amps). One of the nice things about Battery Monitors is that they tell you what the batteries are accepting (even if the SOC reading is questionable) and with that and the voltage you can may a pretty reasonable guess at SOC knowing that the source could be putting out a lot more power if it had a load to provide .

In my opinion.
 
#9 ·
Starting at 70% SOC charge running a generator for 2 hours wouldn't ever really fully charged a 400AH battery bank (as the OP has now discovered)......
I do understand that, but don't think I implied otherwise.

My stated concern is, after a couple of hours of charging (generator powering a battery charger), I don't see much of an increase in stated capacity at all. Sometimes less that a 10 point increase in capacity. That seemed light to me.

More critically, it indicates that we use more than 10 points of capacity per day, so that suggests we can't keep up. That really makes no sense. Even on our power hungry boat, I would think that running the battery charger for two hours per day would keep up.

More testing coming this weekend. Heading out for a two week cruise in a couple of week, with likely no slip power along the way. Need to straighten this out.
 
#11 ·
I went to look and couldn't find it. It's not on the home page, nor the on the page he linked above. Maybe my ad blocker is hiding it?

Then, it occurred to me. I bought the SmartGauge from MS. :)

I've also purchase butyl from him over the years. So, it's really a customer inquiry. :)
 
#17 ·
Update....... still not sure the Smartguage is acting smartly.

Since my OP, I've changed out my Xantrex inverter charger for a Magnum 2800w inverter/charger. For starters, I love the Magnum so far. Much better inverter, charger and remote.

Over the winter, I pulled the fuse on the Smartguage to avoid any parasitic load. I don't know if that messed anything up. It no longer reads anything near 100% charge at any time. Not even after plugged in for a week. The Magnum remote reads Full Charge, while the smartgauge will read anything from 70% to maybe 80%. I've also tried to run the batts down, when cruising, to 12.2 volts (as read on the Magnum remote and confirmed on the Smartguage), just to get some range for the gauge to follow and learn. It has read in the 40% capacity range, when I still had 12.2-12.4 volts in the batts.

Bottom line, it never reads full, when I know it's full and it seems to read much lower capacity than I think it really has.

Is there a hard restart I should do to start over?
 
#18 ·
The hard reset on the SmartGauge is to pull the negative wire from the back, wait a minute, and then re-connect. The SmartGauge will display the error message "E01", until you push any button.
I suggest that you re-program the battery type to match the batteries that you have installed;
The battery types are numbered 1 to 7 and are as follows:
• Type 1 - Standard wet cell deep cycle Lead Acid - Use this setting for:-
1. Standard vented Lead Acid deep cycle
2. Lead acid recombinant (have a catalyzer in the cap to recombine the oxygen and hydrogen back into water that is normally lost during charging in a standard Lead Acid battery). Do not confuse with VRLA (AGM or Gel).
• Type 2 - Gel Cell - Use this setting only for Gel Cells
• Type 3- AGM - Absorbed Glass Matt (VRLA)
1. Use only for genuine AGM batteries. NOTE: There are two very distinct types of AGM batteries with very different operational characteristics. In one type the only real difference is that the electrolyte is held in a glass matt. This type usually have charge voltages very similar to flooded wet cell batteries. The offload terminal voltages will also be very similar to flooded wet cell batteries. If your AGM batteries are of this type then Smartgauge should be set to battery type 1.
2. The other type of AGM have additional chemicals in the battery and require lower charge voltages and the off load terminal voltages will be similar to gel cells. This type require Smartgauge to be set to battery type 3.
• Type 4 - HYBRID (Also known as Antimony/Calcium or Hi-Calcium.)
1. Usually identified by being sealed but the acid inside the battery is still liquid. Many are fitted with a 'magic eye' to give an approximate indication of battery condition. Usually marked maintenance free and its normally not possible to open the top of the battery.
• Type 5 - Carbon Fiber
1. Lead/Acid batteries with Carbon Fiber additives to the plates.
• Type 6 - Maintenance free, Calcium/Calcium.
1. Marketed as a semi-traction battery.
• Type 7 - Custom Program
1. Do not select type 7 unless your Smartgauge has been supplied with a specific battery program.
 
#20 ·
There are TWO positive leads for two banks. Disconnect one negative or two fuses - same diff.
 
#22 ·
Roger that. I just looked up how to perform it and will give that a try tonight.

At some point, I did manually adjust the SOC readout and wonder if that messed up it's brains. I bet I set it to 100% SOC when it was plugged in, which would be artificially high voltage at that point. Although, I seem to recall doing so because it never read near 100% right out of the box. This may prove to be a flaw, but I'll try the reset first.
 
#25 ·
Installed this at the beginning of the season and calibrated it to 100% charge and set it to GEL battery type, as the house was fully charged at the slip all week. My first few trips off the dock were short, so the batts never discharged below 80%.

Being away for the weekend more often now, I see discharge levels down in the 50s after a couple of days. But only twice at that level of discharge.

My odd experience, however, has to do with recharging, which may have nothing to do with the gauge.

Previously, all I had to identify charge was the Xantrex remote panel, which has three idiot lights for Bulk, Absorb and Float.

Now, I'm checking the new toy all the time, to see actual voltage and charge percentage.

The SmartGuage was not showing much increase in charge level, after running the generator for an hour or two. Previously, that would be about all I felt I needed to recharge a full days usage. It's been showing an increase of maybe 10% of capacity on a 400ah house bank. This is concerning, because I use more than that per day and I wouldn't think I would need to run the generator for more than two hours per day to keep up.

Then I noticed something on the original idiot gauges. They marched their way up from bulk to float, but the SmartGuage still said the bank was only 84% charged. Float should be 98-99, if I understand this correctly.

Could it be that the SmartGuage hasn't "learned" the house parameters yet? Remember, I've also considered that the idiot lights are wrong too.

Final symptom..... When plugged into the dock, I measure 115volts at the AC receptacles. When running the generator, I only measure 106 volts. However, in both scenarios, the SmartGuage seems out of synch with the idiot lights.
I have a Morningstar Duo which charges both banks with a Balmar Smart Guage. I also show the same numbers....no matter what I do 84% seems to be the magic number. Even when I tell it that 84 is really 100% it agrees with me for a few hours and slowly sinks to 84% or a bit lower if there is a load thn climbs again to 84. I was told I need to check battery voltage 30 min after sunset to know the true state of the batteries by comparing the voltage to am chart....
 
#26 ·
I did the factory reset this weekend, then reset the battery type and left it alone. Upon reset, it read 75% SOC as the default the manual said it would. My batts were actually at near 100%, plugged into the dock. I wasn't without power, in some form, for very long this weekend, but tried to run them down as best I could and then plugged back in. This morning, it reads 79%, still plugged in.

The manual says it takes about 48 hrs to figure things out. I'm beginning to wonder if staying plugged in for those 48hrs gives it a false sense.
 
#28 ·
In order to best know when your batts are near 50% SOC, or when you have enough buffer to go to sleep before recharging and not risk a deep discharge overnight. Extends battery life. Pays for the gauge multiple times over. This is supposed to be a better mouse trap than the old shunt and amp counter, if I can get it working properly. The old method wouldn't know when the batts total capacity was degraded, they only count what you tell them. I get approx 8 yrs from my batts. Average is probably 5.

Somehow I suspect you're content not having one.
 
#31 ·
But I can do all that with my battery monitor. And it's you posting about how your SG isn't accurate so don't make the excuse that BMs aren't accurate. If I know how many AH out and voltage of my batteries I know pretty much their state of charge and how much is left.

Yes I'm content not having a SG. I wanted one once and came close to getting one. But decided I didn't need another magic box to tell me lies.

A smart gage is over half the price of my house bank that I replaced after 6 years of abuse even though they had at least 80% capacity still. So. Don't see how having one would save money.
 
#29 ·
When you are plugged in at the dock are your batteries charging/floating? If so, won't that throw off the SG?

My SG will get to 99 or 100% when I plug in and charge using my Xantrex, but I never see much over 90% when charging from my alternator (Balmar with external reg).

Also, can someone (Maine Sail) confirm that my SG should be set to type 5 for Firefly batteries?
 
#33 · (Edited by Moderator)
Minnewaska;3988810 If you think your amp hr counter is accurately telling you SOC said:
So I guess this is XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Personal attack removed per forum rules- Jeff_H SailNet Moderator
 
#34 ·
FWIW I also have a SmartGauge (also bought it from mainsail!). I installed it and a new ProCharge Ultra 1.5 years ago.

When I first installed it, the SG behaved similarly to how you describe. It rarely showed above 80% capacity. It dropped pretty fast when away from the dock. Alternator charging was even lower and slower. The SG had the entire season to "learn" but it never really seemed to learn very much.

The DC wiring on my boat was old and a bit dodgy in places. Everything worked and it wasnt dangerous but it was do for a re-wire. Unrelated to the SG I decided to do this project over this past winter. I didnt expect that the odd SG behavior was related to the wiring.

To my delight, ever since the rewire, the SG has working perfectly. After installing the SG 'learned" pretty quickly (8hrs ... maybe 12). The SG rises to 100% capacity quickly when on the charger. it drops as expected when away from the dock. Its rises to ~93% after motoring a few hrs. Completely different from last year.

Last year I was skeptical about the SG and really didnt feel that I could rely on it. But now I see it in action working as it should.

Since it was a full re-wire I can't say exactly which change had the effect. Undersized wires? marginal ground? I can't say since I literally ripped out all of the old and started from scratch.

additional data points:
- Last year the ProCharge Ultra, in bulk mode, never ramped up to full amperage output. it was always "holding back" and would rise to only ~80% of max. After the rewire it rises to 100% output immediately (while in bulk mode) as expected.
- Last year the autopilot would reboot when starting the engine (often a sign of marginal ground). After the rewire this issue is gone as well.

So I'm afraid I can't say what exactly fixed it ... but in my case it was related to the overall health of the wiring.
 
#35 ·
If replacing all the DC appliance wiring made a difference, I can only assume there was a subtle short somewhere prior. As is the case with my SG, I assume you wired it with new cabling to the batts. Interesting thought over whether a subtle leak would affect the SG. Shorts are never good. :)

I'm still wondering if being plugged in for a week straight, after the initial installation or factory reset, messes up its analysis.

When I take off cruising in a couple of weeks, I'm tempted to do another factory reset after unpluggging and sailing for a few hours to let the batts rest. This way, it will begin to see cycling every day for a few weeks.

I now recall that I messed with the SOC setting immediately after I installed it initially. Since I knew the batts were full at the dock, I bumped the defaulted 75% to 100%. I'm going to leave it alone this time.
 
#36 ·
If replacing all the DC appliance wiring made a difference, I can only assume there was a subtle short somewhere prior.
perhaps a subtle short, or some combination of subtle anomalies.

As is the case with my SG, I assume you wired it with new cabling to the batts.
Yes, all new, to spec, direct to the batts.

I'm still wondering if being plugged in for a week straight, after the initial installation or factory reset, messes up its analysis.
FWIW I dont think so.

pre-re-wire I saw similar behavior and I thought the same as you (that being plugged in immediately after a rest was throwing t off since it could not see normal usage patterns). And I tried many variations on the theme of performing a factory reset. (in particular, reset it prior to leaving the dock for a week or so with the intention that the SG would see and learn the batt characteristics under normal cycling conditions. ). nothing ever worked.

However, post-re-wire the SG adapts quickly and leaving it plugged in for week or two straight does not throw it off (noticeably). It adapts quickly when unplugged.

Post-re-wire the SG is behaving exactly as I'd expect, no fiddling, no resets, no babying it, no trying to second guess it. nothing. it just works ... and this why I bought the damned thing after all!

I have to say the way that it was behaving last year, I would never have recommended it to anyone. But this year its completely different and I'm actually thrilled with it.

In my case the problem was not the unit itself at all. Clearly the problem was in my house wiring, although I didnt know it at the time.
 
#37 ·
I think the weak link in the BM unit is too many connections to the automotive spade type fuse assembly....FWIW, I'd change to an inline marine fuse holder.
 
#39 ·
Good point, John. When I'm done upgrading my house bank alone, it will be about $3,600 to replace it all at the end of its useful life. That excludes equally as many other batts, which separately run powered windlass, thrusters, winches, starts, etc.

Makes great sense to monitor their care.
 
#41 ·
Of course it is possible that unit is broken, or that your particular Gel bank has some characteristics unusual enough the SG algorithms don't work.

You need to have another means measure SoC to compare.

Best would be measuring Amps flow charging off shore power, verify the voltage is kept at mfg spec for Absorb for many hours.

Understand that alt or generator will never get the bank to full, just not worth burning dino juice for that many hours as the Amps absorbed declines.

The mfg will have a spec for "trailing amps" or endAmps, say it is .01C, or 1A of current per 100A. What model batteries are your gels?

Only end charging when amps is reduced to that point.

That is 100% Full. In fact at this point I'd recommend using **only** this measure as reliable. Even though Magnum makes excellent units, there may be customization settings needed in order to keep it from going to Float too early, in general, charge sources are often innacurate out of the box.

Using a shunt-based SoC BM, you would tell the BM, in effect "reset" it each time it is full; better models automate the process, but still need periodic calibration.

You also need to tell it the actual AH capacity, if say 450AH to start when new, after three years may have declined to 380AH. This number is determined by a 20-hour load test as Maine Saile has detailed.

You would now have two alternatives to the SG for comparison. Many people keep both BMs, since the AH counting gives more detailed information, even if it is (usually) less accurate than the SG.
 
#43 ·
...You need to have another means measure SoC to compare.
Is the magnum charger reading Full an acceptable alternate? I expected the SG to read in the upper 90s at this point, if not 100.

Understand that alt or generator will never get the bank to full, just not worth burning dino juice for that many hours as the Amps absorbed declines.
I do understand that. I referenced it to suggest the batts went through many varying cycles, including returning to Full at the slip.

You also need to tell it the actual AH capacity, if say 450AH to start when new, after three years may have declined to 380AH. This number is determined by a 20-hour load test as Maine Saile has detailed.

You would now have two alternatives to the SG for comparison. Many people keep both BMs, since the AH counting gives more detailed information, even if it is (usually) less accurate than the SG.
I understand how a shunt based Ah meter works and it's shortcomings. I thought the SG was supposed to be "smart" enough to account for reduced capacity over time.

Is it possible that it is telling me that my bank is only at 72% of its original capacity, when Full? I doubt it, as I can't imagine how it would know. While reduced over the few years since I installed new batts, I would still think it would show 100% of its marginally reduced capacity.

I don't recall the manufacturer and I can't see it easily in the battery compartment. I believe it was a quality brand. There are 4 group 31s, iirc. Each was either 105 or 110 Ah rated.
 
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