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Boat wire: is SAE tinned "good enough"?

12K views 72 replies 19 participants last post by  CS Cruiser 
#1 ·
Had a great weekend at the Toronto boat show. Certainly lots of big fancy boats to step aboard and dream about. More importantly as a newer boat owner, I got to meet lots of local businesses in the industry and start planning ahead for future projects. Like any good boat-related event, I also got to thoroughly empty my bank account...

I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.

After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.

I'm being given the option of either returning the wire for a full refund or paying an additional cost to exchange it for newer wire if they are able to source it. Complicating this, is a 4 hour return trip to the store or paying shipping charges. Given I got a great price on the wire, should I just go ahead and stop fretting the details?

Thanks for your help!
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Everything you ever wanted to know about boat cable :

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/006/ul.1426.1986.pdf

Note that it does refer to an SAE standard for 50V boat cable, SAEJ1127.

So it IS possible that what you have is boat cable. See page 17 of the standard. It may be labelled with the SAE three letter code, and the temperature rating.

What does the label say, exactly?
 
#3 ·
Sounds like you got ripped off. If SAE indicates it is acceptable to auto manufacturers ... um ... that's setting the bar desperately low. I cannot think of any product with lower standards and specs than an automobile.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Had a great weekend at the Toronto boat show. Certainly lots of big fancy boats to step aboard and dream about. More importantly as a newer boat owner, I got to meet lots of local businesses in the industry and start planning ahead for future projects. Like any good boat-related event, I also got to thoroughly empty my bank account...

I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.

After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.

I'm being given the option of either returning the wire for a full refund or paying an additional cost to exchange it for newer wire if they are able to source it. Complicating this, is a 4 hour return trip to the store or paying shipping charges. Given I got a great price on the wire, should I just go ahead and stop fretting the details?

Thanks for your help!
#1 You are being lied to. 105C UL Marine wire has been around in excess of 25 years. Hard to get my arse.

#2 Ancor does not make wire, they brand wire...

Return it, the guy seems a bit snakey.. If you paid for 105C BC5W2 UL1426 wire that is what you should get.
 
#6 ·
Exactly what Maine sail says, and also you may be using this for only 12V applications, cannot be used for any 120v or 240v wiring on your boat. Better to stick with 105c rated conductors as will be good also if you run thru engine compartment.
In the end best to have 105c-600v rated wiring.....
 
#7 ·
Yep... as Mainesail and others have suggested you got ripped off... simple online search reveals:

GPT Automotive Hook Up Wire

GPT Wire
Volts: 50V
Temperature: 80ºC

GPT Wire Insulation
Polyvinylchloride Insulation

GPT Wire Conductor
Stranded Bare Copper

GPT Wire Applications

For use in general circuit wiring according to SAE J-1128. It is also used in wiring harnesses in passenger cars and light trucks, agricultural tractors, construction, locomotive and off-the-road vehicles. Intended for use at 50 volts or less in surface vehicle electrical systems.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I'm having a bit of an issue with one of my larger purchases: several hundred feet of "marine wire" ranging from 1/0 to 14 gauge. This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.

After noticing this, I called up the retailer today and was assured that the wire I bought was manufactured by Ancor but is older stock. I was also told that 105deg wire is very new and difficult to source in Canada.
The retailer is feeding you a pack of lies. I'm based Toronto and fully rewired my boat 15 years ago with all marine Ancor wire 105c rated. Its in every real chandlery very easy to find!. Sounds like the retailer was trying to dump cheap wire at premium prices. Pending the outcome you should let us know who they are so we can avoid them

Also when you eventually go to sell a good surveyor will notice that you used incorrect wire and should note it in their report as an item to remedy (I.E. lower selling price)
 
#9 ·
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the quick replies. I had a suspicion this would be the consensus. Interestingly, a search on the address found on some of the packaging for "C.S. wire and cable" seems to historically be associated with Marinco/Ancor but a quick call to them confirms that they have no information about the wire I have in hand.

Drats. Looks like I'm going to have to take a road trip down for a refund. Although I've never shopped with this store before, I was really hoping to establish a good relationship with them, as they came highly recommended to me as a local supplier of general marine goods but also specific original parts/replacements for my boat. In hindsight, although they genuinely came across as very nice and honest folks at the show, i have a hard time believing they genuinely mistook this old (?ancient) wiring as equivalent to what they are advertising.

In any event, if anyone else in the Toronto area is/was looking into a great deal on Ancor marine wire, buyer beware and please feel free to PM me so I can give you the details of my transaction.

Thank you again for everyone's help.
 
#10 ·
Something that can explain it all:

SAE wire gauges and AWG wire gauges (which Ancor usually uses) are NOT THE SAME. An SAE wire size is normally 1-2 sizes under the corresponding AWG size, as I recall, so if you order AWG-10 wire, and you get "SAE-10" you've really gotten AWG-14, a very much smaller, thinner, CHEAPER wire.

The merchant is basically paying by the pound for copper, and when they deliver a size or two lighter? Right, they have saved lots of money. AND CHEATED YOU.

This could be actionable fraud (mail fraud, wire fraud, etc.) in the US. It would also be delivering non-conforming goods, which would both release you from any obligation to accept them.

Could be some sort of relabeling mix-up, sure. But CHECK THE WIRE on a gauge (or use a wire stripper, see if it strips at the right size) and if you were sent non-confirming goods, tell the vendor you're on to the game. They can send a pre-paid pickup slip, or they can explain it to the fraud investigators.

There's just too much of this ***t going on. It IS simply criminal, and we all need to roll up our sleeves and pitch in to stop it. If you used a credit card, non-conforming goods is a perfect reason to call the card company and reject the charges.
 
#16 ·
Something that can explain it all:

SAE wire gauges and AWG wire gauges (which Ancor usually uses) are NOT THE SAME. An SAE wire size is normally 1-2 sizes under the corresponding AWG size, as I recall, so if you order AWG-10 wire, and you get "SAE-10" you've really gotten AWG-14, a very much smaller, thinner, CHEAPER wire.

The merchant is basically paying by the pound for copper, and when they deliver a size or two lighter? Right, they have saved lots of money. AND CHEATED YOU.

This could be actionable fraud (mail fraud, wire fraud, etc.) in the US. It would also be delivering non-conforming goods, which would both release you from any obligation to accept them.

Could be some sort of relabeling mix-up, sure. But CHECK THE WIRE on a gauge (or use a wire stripper, see if it strips at the right size) and if you were sent non-confirming goods, tell the vendor you're on to the game. They can send a pre-paid pickup slip, or they can explain it to the fraud investigators.

There's just too much of this ***t going on. It IS simply criminal, and we all need to roll up our sleeves and pitch in to stop it. If you used a credit card, non-conforming goods is a perfect reason to call the card company and reject the charges.
A highly useful post! I did not know that SAE gauges are different from AWG gauges. Thank you for pointing this out!

And I agree with your outrage. This could have easily happened to me (see previous sentence) and it is pure and simple fraud. I don't believe for a second that this vendor did not know exactly what he/she/it was selling (see the bogus claim "105deg cable just came out"), and they are counting on the relative ignorance of buyers, like yours truly.

Throw the book at'em!
 
#11 ·
First off, I would forward Maine Sail's answer to this person.
Next I would insist that this person pay the return shipping. I doubt the boat show organizers would take too kindly to one of their booth holders blatantly ripping off customers, and you might want to point this out to the guy, in case he has intentions of getting another booth at a boat show.
I certainly would not just let him get away with this sort of rip off.
 
#14 ·
Bljones, Capta, Hellosailor and others:

Thanks for the support. It's really reassuring to hear from knowledgeable folks that I'm not going crazy or being super finicky. Although I'm a bit frustrated, I'm not quite ready to flame this local business and throw them under the bus just yet. I'm still waiting to see how this all plays out and will be sure to update this thread at that time.

Again, for the sake of helping others, please PM me if you wish to know the details and I will get back to you.

cheers,
Novic
 
#17 ·
Bljones, Capta, Hellosailor and others:

Thanks for the support. It's really reassuring to hear from knowledgeable folks that I'm not going crazy or being super finicky. Although I'm a bit frustrated, I'm not quite ready to flame this local business and throw them under the bus just yet. I'm still waiting to see how this all plays out and will be sure to update this thread at that time.

Again, for the sake of helping others, please PM me if you wish to know the details and I will get back to you.

cheers,
Novic
If you don't throw an obvious fraudster under the bus, they will make continue to make money with people that are less cautious than you are.
 
#15 ·
If they said it was "marine grade" then I would return it and demand they ship the correct grade wire, at no cost to you, or return your money, and send a pick up for the wrong goods. If they don't offer to send FedEx (or some other shipper) to come pick it up then ask that they refund your money (call credit card company and file a complaint as well, as you have a limited time to do this) and allow you to keep the wire. Under no circumstances would I drive it there unless they are reimbursing you for your mileage. This is not "old" wire, just simply the "wrong" wire, I believe this just standard automotive wiring. As Hellosailor has mentioned it is gauged differently, so not only is it the wrong temperature rating it is not the correct gauge.
 
#20 ·
Based on you owning a CS36T and the vendor being one with 'original replacement parts' I'm thinking their catalog has a bright yellow cover. My experience is similar to BLJones - never comfortable with their customer service and always had the feeling customers are their lowest priority. Fortunately there are other options once you get to know your way around the chandlers. Your best bet is to ask other boaters in your area and on your travels.
 
#21 ·
I agree with the other posters. Both Ancor (distributed by Paynes in Canada) and Vertex (distributed by Vertex and Stright Mckay among others) are 105 deg 600 volt wire and tinned, as is boat cable from ECS. Wire with this spec is available across the country.

If you purchased from Holland Marine I would return it and never deal with them again.
 
#22 ·
Once again,
I appreciate the support and advice on this forum. It is certainly reassuring to hear that my gut reaction when I inspected my purchase is not unfounded. This is exactly what I was looking for.

Having said that, I would urge restraint in passing judgement until the dust has settled. Please remember that this is my personal account of a transaction for which the retailer has not yet fully responded.

Yes there is no question that there is a problem here. An item was advertised on sale; I paid for it; I got something else. Don't worry, I've covered my bases. My receipt lists the items paid for and I have a screen grab from the online ad. On the other hand, I'm also willing to consider that this may have been an "honest" mistake. For all I know, some employee didn't know any better.

Yes, the response I got from this business when I first voiced my concerns, is even more regrettable. Although speculation on my part, I suspect this probably was an attempt to pacify me and make me go away, regardless of what actually caused the mixup. But, as they pointed out, I was calling first thing in the morning after a busy week at the show and they hadn't even had a chance to unpack. At this point they've requested a few days to sort things out and I've agreed.

I'd also like to take some responsibility for this kerfuffle. After all, I did buy these items in person and had every opportunity to inspect the goods and voice concerns before opening my wallet. In addition, I should point out that I purchased many other items at the same time, with which I'm completely satisfied. Furthermore, the fact that these folks spent nearly half an hour providing me with specific and valuable knowledge about how to maintain my boat, certainly influences my overall opinion of them. Finally this chandler was recommended to me by local sailors and judging by the volume of sales, they obviously have many satisfied repeat customers. It is for these reasons that at this time, I am choosing not to crucify this business in a public forum.
Pending final resolution of this situation, I certainly reserve the right to reverse this decision :)

I'm sure some of you think that I'm giving these guys way to much benefit of the doubt.However, I like to think that we all make mistakes in life, big and small, sometimes intentional sometimes not. I certainly appreciate when I'm given a chance to make good on my mistakes. I've given these guys an opportunity; let's see how this pans out; and I'll certainly post any developments here. At the same time, I completely agree with those who are stating that we need to inform each other as consumers, which is why I am offering to provide further detailed information to those who are requesting it.

Phew. I apologize for the long winded response. If you're utterly bored by this post, just wait until this newb starts posting real boating questions....:)

cheers,
Novic
 
#23 ·
If it hasn't been mentioned before, another very important difference between boat wire and auto primary wire is the thickness of the individual strands. Boat wire has much thinner strands. This adds flexibility and reduces the risk of the strands becoming brittle and breaking at bends that get flexed with the movement of the boat.
For what it's worth, Novic, I think you're being way too nice to them. Give them a chance to fix the problem--maybe the guy you talked to on the phone was a recent, bad hire. Otherwise, if they were just making an honest mistake they should have fixed it and not BS'd you. You bear zero (0) responsibility for having been sold junk by people whom you are paying from their presumed expertise and competence. I agree, they ought to pay shipping and apologize.
And if they don't, nobody else here should get sucked into buying from them.
Good luck with it.
JV
 
#24 ·
We really have no idea what the OP received, as he hasn't replied to my question about what the labelling is on the cable EXACTLY.

All we know is that it says SAE on it, and it's 50V, 80C. If any of you had taken the trouble to read the UL1426 specification I linked to, you'd see that it's entirely possible to get UL1426 listed, 50V 80C boat cable with an SAE mark.

So the implications in some posts are that the only thing that's allowed to be called "boat cable" is sold by Ancor and has a 105C, 600V rating. This is not true. That's one kind of boat cable, the OP probably got a different kind.

The idea that we should castigate the vendor, publicly, without knowing any of the facts about what the original description of the cable was, is unfair.

If the vendor sold it as 105C, 600V boat cable, then clearly it was not as described. If, on the other hand, it was simply described as boat cable, then perhaps the purchaser is partly to blame for not clarifying exactly what kind of cable it was.
 
#25 · (Edited)
We really have no idea what the OP received, as he hasn't replied to my question about what the labelling is on the cable EXACTLY.

All we know is that it says SAE on it, and it's 50V, 80C. If any of you had taken the trouble to read the UL1426 specification I linked to, you'd see that it's entirely possible to get UL1426 listed, 50V 80C boat cable with an SAE mark.

So the implications in some posts are that the only thing that's allowed to be called "boat cable" is sold by Ancor and has a 105C, 600V rating. This is not true. That's one kind of boat cable, the OP probably got a different kind.

The idea that we should castigate the vendor, publicly, without knowing any of the facts about what the original description of the cable was, is unfair.

If the vendor sold it as 105C, 600V boat cable, then clearly it was not as described. If, on the other hand, it was simply described as boat cable, then perhaps the purchaser is partly to blame for not clarifying exactly what kind of cable it was.
The problem is he was told or lead to believe he was buying Ancor brand wire.

This was advertised as Ancor product that was priced at roughly 40-50% off local retail pricing. What I ended up getting in the box is SAE wire labelled "C.S. Wire & Cable" rated at 80deg and 50V. I freely admit I'm a bit of stickler for details, but in my mind this isn't quite the same as AWG wire rated at 105deg and 600V.
Ancor has always produced a 105C wire with the Ancor brand name on it and it is AWG wire not SAE. Perhaps the vendor bought this wire from the same factory that also makes Ancor wire but that does not make it Ancor BC5W2 105C marine wire. It makes it C.S Wire & Cable 80C SAE wire which is not what he was lead to believe he was buying.

While SAE wire of certain ratings and types are both UL1426 and ABYC qualified selling C.S. SAE wire as Ancor is a little disingenuous to say the least. If I am told I am buying a lot of Ancor or other "marine wire", and I have done so, I am expecting to get 105C BC5W2 wire.

Every maker of marine wire I know of such as Ancor, Pacer, Berkshire, Cobra, Kalas, Camco, East Penn etc. all make 105C wire and this is what the industry and electricians use and have been now for years and years...........

To me it is not whether it falls under the UL1426 category but whether he bought Ancor wire, which he was told he was. If it was really Ancor wire it would be 105C....
 
#26 ·
MarkSF,

the original ad I responded to:

"Ancor Tinned Wire Special,,,about 50 percent savingins, UNBEATABLE!!
ANCOR Marine Grade™ wire is manufactured from tinned copper stranding for maximum protection against corrosion and electrolysis. Ultra flexible (Type 3) stranding resists fatigue due to ibration and flexing.
ANCOR's proprietary premium vinyl insulation stays flexible even in extreme cold and resists salt water, battery acid, oil, gasoline and ultra-violet radiation. Exclusive insulation is rated at 600 volts, 105° C dry and 75° C wet.
Exceeds all UL 1426, US Coast Guard Charterboat (CFR Title 46) and ABYC standards.
All wire pricing is subject so supplies on hand...Shop asap for best selection and PRICE!!
All shipping charges will be actual shipping charges. Pls supply full address for a quote."

the wire jacket labeling on the wire I picked up:

"CS Wire & Cable #12 GPT 80oC 50V SAE J1128 & J378"
"CS Wire & Cable #1/0 SGT 80oC 50V SAE J1127 & J378"

Of some amusement to me is that as of this morning, the online ad has been modified. The sentence starting from "Exclusive" ending with "ABYC standards is now deleted.

sigh...still waiting to hear back from them.
 
#29 ·
Maine,
Thanks for chiming in providing your support. As an aside, I want to say a big thank you for everything you do. Several of your how-to articles had a lot to do with me undertaking some of these electrical projects in the first place.

On the other hand, inspiring myself from your webpage certainly isn't cheap...let's just say I've spent more than a few boat bucks on Blue Sea and Groco stuff over the last few weeks :)

cheers,
Novic
 
#30 ·
Well, I guess my first question would be what are you going to use the wire for? Hey, it's just tinned, copper wire - nothing more, nothing less. Those specs are so high that in nearly every instance I seriously doubt that you would even get remotely close to overloading the wire. But, of course, that depends on what you intend to do with the wire.

Good luck,

Gary :cool:
 
#32 ·
travlineasy,
I hear your point which is also that of the seller. I personally didn't have a great feeling about it, which is why I started this thread. Clearly, others on this forum would feel the same.

As for what the wire is going to be for:

Large gauge for replacing battery parallel connections, battery to main switch, switch to starter, battery to alt and battery to charger and associated grounds.
Small gauge for replacing/consolidating the spaghetti soup in my battery compartment onto bus bars and rewiring some questionable engine wiring.

To be honest, I could probably get away with wiring the whole boat with appropriate gauge speaker wire and I'm sure it would work just fine...for a while. Doesn't mean that I should or want to, especially when I've paid for the right stuff.

cheers,
Novic
 
#33 ·
I would say, with the exception of the battery leads, you will not have any problems as long as you own the boat using that wire. Battery leads, of course, really take a beating, therefore, I would use the heaviest gauge, tinned, marine wire I could get my hands on. I dealt with Tinned Marine Wire.com and they had excellent prices and great service.

Gary :cool:
 
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