Used boats are REALLY retaining value. - Page 4 - SailNet Community
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post #31 of 63 Old 01-21-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I can understand the huge disparity, because the yard rates are also paying for the yard, not just the employee. However, what bothers me is that we pay the same rate, regardless of the skill of the employee. Their best and their worst diesel mechanic are the same rate to the customer, but are paid differently, so have a different profit margin to the yard. Therefore, it would stand to reason, the yard wants to use the less skilled as much as they can. I believe this is a major factor in all of our incompetent yard employee stories.

It also bothers me that I literally pay the same hourly rate for the experienced diesel mechanic, as I pay for the entry level worker who does nothing more than grind the winch to send the rigger up my mast. Then just stands there and waits, while the clock runs at the same rate times 2 people. I paid the same rate for the experienced rigger to restep my mast as I paid for the low man on the totem pole, who was assigned to roll on a coat of bottom paint. The only exception I recall was when I asked for a quote to aggressively scrub all my non-skid, before having my hull waxed (so that the cleaner wouldn't strip the wax, if I waited to do it, after she was launched). $50 per hour for a guy to push on pole attached to a scrub brush and haul a bucket around. A job I do in about 90 minutes, but they estimated 3 hours! I passed.
I always keep this in mind. whenever you see a quote for labor of $100/hr....

In Mobile Alabama is the guy who does all my work, or as much of it as I can finagle named Donnie Brennan.

Donnie is the boatwright for the US Olympic team, and has been for 4 or 5 olympiads. He has done a huge percentage of the NA and World champion bottom jobs for major one design class winners over the last 20 years. His bottom jobs and keel fairing jobs in the raceing world are littlerly worth every penny, when I sold my J-22 years ago I sold it for $7,000 more than it would have been worth because Donnie had faired my bottom, cost me $7,000.

His labor rate is $100/hr, the exact same as BoBo the yard moron locally.

In my eyes Donnie is worth every penny of that $100/hr. He really is a master craftsman and I have never worried about what comes out of his yard. BoBo is an idiot with a paint brush who ruins as much as he fixed most of the time.


Btw years ago I worked as BoBo and I thought I was overpaid even then.
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post #32 of 63 Old 01-21-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

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Originally Posted by night0wl View Post
Thats because labor rates in the US are unbelievably high.
I was not referring to that. I was talking strictly DIY, with boats sitting in yards for years because the owners got in way over their heads and found out that the little bit of TLC turned into a significant refit. Hired help does not even enter into that equation.

Hypothetically, you can pick up a "bargain" for $10k, end up putting $30,000 of repairs and upgrades while you work for 2 years to make her seaworthy, and end up with at $10k boat that you haven't even been able to sail yet.

Or you can buy a $35k boat in sail-away condition, put in $5k of normal maintenance and minor upgrades over two years of sailing, and end up with a boat worth $35k after two years of having fun.

This is an exaggerated example, but I see too many people who follow the first example because they mistakenly thought they would get a bargain.
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Are you sure you put that correctly? All boat prices depreciate significantly in the first few years. For this to be true, prices would then need to go back up again, in that window. This does eventually happen, but I think it takes substantially longer.
My study was not fully scientific, and the boats were sold new in the pre-Internet days. My reference to new price was a few data points of dealer list. Fully commissioned price is probably much higher, and probably does depreciate out quickly in the first few years. So take my comments with a grain of salt.

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post #33 of 63 Old 01-21-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

I agree buying a boat that you need two years to make seaworthy and expect to get your money back out of is not a good move.

When I buy a boat, I better be able to sail it 300 or 400 miles home with no work and no concerns. I want the sails to be serviceable while I find sail makers to fix me up with what I want, the engine has to run well. I see no connection between seaworthiness and electronics what so ever, they are a labour saving device, nothing more, nothing less.

This is what I expect whether I pay $5000 or $30000 for a boat.

Cosmetic touch ups, electronics and comfort systems don't make a boat seaworthy, they make it comfortable and pretty.

Getting luxurious accommodations, convenient electronics, pretty gelcoat and seaworthiness confused is how people wind up blowing too much money (for them) on boats a lot of the time I think.
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post #34 of 63 Old 01-21-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

The issue is with first time boat buyers who don't know what they don't know. They may overlook critical safety issues. They expect a few hours of TLC, and may get two years of pure headaches.

More experienced buyers can assess these things better - as well as sail their current boat while they work on their next boat.
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post #35 of 63 Old 01-21-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

Having recently gone through my third arduous hunt you come to the realisation that older boats, reasonably well cared for with a recent motor upgrade still have great value. As has been stated whether it's the hull, rigging or amenities you are taking about, the quality is still evident and the sailing experience is excellent, therefore the value to the consumer is retained. I bought newer, but my brother has a 40 year old C & C with a new motor and transmission that has been lovingly cared for and provides a wonderful and very solid day on the water, even when the gusts are sending me to the dock.
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post #36 of 63 Old 01-21-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
The issue is with first time boat buyers who don't know what they don't know. They may overlook critical safety issues. They expect a few hours of TLC, and may get two years of pure headaches.

More experienced buyers can assess these things better - as well as sail their current boat while they work on their next boat.
Ya it's true. I have a friend who really wants to buy a boat, and he's enticed by the $1000 "deals" for a 27 footer. And yet he can afford to spend more.

I've tried to gently guide him on the benefits of buying the best conditioned boat you can find, but you know how that goes...lol.

He did sort of come around when he went to Westmarine and looked at the cost of parts. Show someone the price of a new winch and see how they change their mind about a fixerupper.
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post #37 of 63 Old 01-21-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

Perhaps a bit of a diversion but I talked to friend at the Toronto Boat Show yesterday. He has been a yacht broker for more than 40 years so knows what is happening in the Ontario market. He said that the last two years have been excellent after many slow years.

After the refit we have decided to sell Ainia. We want something smaller that would be could for the light summer winds of Lake Ontario, although we plan to spend at least a couple of winters in the Caribbean before heading north.
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post #38 of 63 Old 01-21-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

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5 or 6 times a year I am hired to survey brand new boats. The list of recommendations is often as long as a 40yr. old boat.
What are some of the most common recommendations on the new sailboats.
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post #39 of 63 Old 01-22-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

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Originally Posted by ianjoub View Post
I am amazed that 10 year old used sailboats can still be priced at close to $2,000,000. I hope they are open to more reasonable offers when we are buying in 3 years. I have an email in to Oyster to rough price out a new one...

2008 Oyster 655 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2010 Oyster 655 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

2008 Oyster 655 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
You sent an email to get a rough quote for a multi-million dollar semi-custom boat?

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post #40 of 63 Old 01-22-2017
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Re: Used boats are REALLY retaining value.

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You sent an email to get a rough quote for a multi-million dollar semi-custom boat?

Yes. Does it seem odd? I wanted to know where they start price wise. I got a reply. I will be buying used as they are out of my price range. I though if the price was closer than it was, and I could spread the build cost out over a 2-3 year period, it would be a viable alternative.

I rarely see the super shoal option that Oyster offers on used boats, and it is one of the features I would like to have. It would also have been nice to delete a couple of the cabins in favor of a wet locker with dive compressor and more storage with perhaps another freezer.

As it turn out, not in my future. I figure (just an off the cuff guess) that I could easily add $1m by the time I have it 'tastefully outfitted'.

Quote:
Dear Mr. Joubert,

Thanks for your interest in the Oyster 575, 625 and 675. With this email I have attached photos and brochures for each. Base prices and delivery times are as follows:

575 - $1,850,000 USD spring 2018
625 - $2,700,000 USD summer 2018
675 - $3,500,000 USD late summer/autumn 2018

Please let me know if I may be of further assistance in support of your interest.

Best regards,

******
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