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post #171 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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I don't think you are saying this, but I think we need to be clear. The feeling of sailing a cruising cat is different than a mono hull.
That is exactly what I was saying. I just furthered the point that the "feeling" on a monohull being associated with "sailing" is a learned response, and a similar learned response is gained over time on a catamaran. Once acclimated, going between the two seems strange, although one can enjoy both for what they give.

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post #172 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

To Sander's point, I think that it is the irrational, intangible, perceptual stuff that is the most important.

Sailing doesn't make any sense. Why would you sail anywhere? If you've got a decent sized cruising boat, it would be cheaper and faster to fly first class on a 747 that goes to weather pretty nicely.

You do it for esthetics, for feel, for how it makes you feel, to feel the spray, to listen to the sea birds, to trim the sails just right, to turn the engine off and hear and feel and....

If you just want a big party platform when you get there, a power boat would work just fine.

But if you are here, there is something else going on for you. Not just getting there, the process of getting there using an old fashioned, slow, conveyance. It must have something to do with how that feels to you.

And it's precisely that fools errand that we are all engaged in discussing.
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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That is exactly what I was saying. I just furthered the point that the "feeling" on a monohull being associated with "sailing" is a learned response, and a similar learned response is gained over time on a catamaran. Once acclimated, going between the two seems strange, although one can enjoy both for what they give.

Mark
I get that Mark, but I tried, admittedly for only a couple of weeks on some charter cats, and I was unsuccessful at learning this new response. Maybe it takes more time, maybe I'm too old, maybe those charter boats aren't good examples but I'm not a convert.

I just don't like how they feel under sail. I think everyone's mileage varies on this account, and I understand that cat enthusiasts clearly feel different. But feel is feel, it's not rational. But feel, is the reason I sail.
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Gentlemen - I think we’re all over the place comparing apples to oranges between and in groups.
Even back in the day phrf racing you were taught “flat is fast”. Now you have a production builder selling monoramarans whatever the hell that is. Even my boat is happiest at ~20 degrees. More you just start digging a hole to leeward. Rail down is exciting but clearly time to reef as it’s slower. Current ocean monos with flatter runs like some heeling to be sure and need it to get best speed but again don’t like to be spilling air over the top of the square head. The ride is different than an Erik derived hull it’s not tender at first and then stiffens up but rather very stable once there’s a bone in her teeth at modest heel.
Ocean performance cats have a different issue. Being so fast aws progressively rises once the rags are up. With that awa progressively falls. After you’re going awhile you reef and tighten up. You may even need to do that again even in moderate air.
Experience is different. You’re on more of a beat ( relative to the wind not the sea) in higher wind if sailing to the performance envelope. There’s no “better” with this. It’s just different. Some find being on deck at a beat at higher speeds in higher wind tiring. Others find it delightful. Many cats have inside steering which is less likely to be available on monos so that’s another variable. Similarly comparing a Prout with its tiny blade main to a modern fractional or rotating mast rigged cat is like comparing a Westsail to a Pogo.
Agree with smj that we should talk more specifically as sometimes generalizations obscure relevant information.
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Last edited by outbound; 02-25-2018 at 10:24 AM.
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post #175 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Cats are popular and rightly so for term charter in the tropics. These are perfect platforms for large groups of people / families desiring a shared vacation. But the size may make little sense for the single handed or couple cruising up north who mostly go out on the water for the week end.

Cats are excellent solutions for some sets of criteria and not so for others. My sense is their success is largely driven by term charter and families who want to go for long term cruising through the tropics. They will not likely overtake monos in the temperate clients, more crowded with limited docking compared to demand.
I have been trying to point to how these statements are incorrect, and reflect only localized observations being stated as absolutes - and I think Smackdaddy has been doing similar by posting videos and blogs of people out cruising on catamarans.

Yes, the charter market has a lot of catamarans. They also have at least equal numbers of monohulls, and most likely greater numbers of monohulls.

There are many, many, many, people cruising on catamarans long term and long distance, and few of them are larger families. Right now, we are in an anchorage with 5 cruising catamarans and 1 monohull. The cruising cats consist of one single hander and four couples. The majority, by far, of cruising catamarans we meet are owned by couples. They are also a better platform for families, but the number of families out cruising in any type of boat is pretty low.

These are real observations from New England throughout the entire Caribbean, South, and Central America. Chesapeake Bay and New England during the summer get many catamarans cruising there, but they leave with the seasons - just as they previously left tropic climates during the summer season. I've already agreed that catamarans are not good solutions for short term seasonal sailing with winter layups. However, New England has already increased dramatically in full-time catamarans in its waters being used in this manner. Nobody said they would become the predominant type of boat there, but I don't see why that topic is even interesting or what point it is trying to make.

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post #176 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Originally Posted by capecodda View Post
To Sander's point, I think that it is the irrational, intangible, perceptual stuff that is the most important.

Sailing doesn't make any sense. Why would you sail anywhere? If you've got a decent sized cruising boat, it would be cheaper and faster to fly first class on a 747 that goes to weather pretty nicely.

You do it for esthetics, for feel, for how it makes you feel, to feel the spray, to listen to the sea birds, to trim the sails just right, to turn the engine off and hear and feel and....

If you just want a big party platform when you get there, a power boat would work just fine.

But if you are here, there is something else going on for you. Not just getting there, the process of getting there using an old fashioned, slow, conveyance. It must have something to do with how that feels to you.

And it's precisely that fools errand that we are all engaged in discussing.
Some of us are cruising full time enjoying different cultures and a different lifestyle. Our choice of boat was more logical to us, rather than a "feeling" or something irrational or intangible. We certainly could not afford to do this by flying (even coach), and have spent lots of time in places inaccessible to anyone without a boat.

Mark
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Originally Posted by capecodda View Post
I get that Mark, but I tried, admittedly for only a couple of weeks on some charter cats, and I was unsuccessful at learning this new response. Maybe it takes more time, maybe I'm too old, maybe those charter boats aren't good examples but I'm not a convert.

I just don't like how they feel under sail. I think everyone's mileage varies on this account, and I understand that cat enthusiasts clearly feel different. But feel is feel, it's not rational. But feel, is the reason I sail.
To put this in balance, many initiates to sailing monohulls spend years getting used to being heeled and rolling and how they feel under sail. Many wives won't go out on them anymore for this reason.

But I don't begrudge what you want out of a sailing feel - just adding to my case that it is a learned association and not an innate one.

Mark
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

CC appreciate your post but must say there’s something incredibly pleasant about being on a heavy displacement trawler ( think Norhavn, Selene, Diesel Duck) with the engine softly ticking over just trucking along offshore. Again this speaks to preconceived ideas leading to entrenched likes and dislikes that aren’t logical. As said to Mikey “try it...you’ll like it”.
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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I've already agreed that catamarans are not good solutions for short term seasonal sailing with winter layups. However, New England has already increased dramatically in full-time catamarans in its waters being used in this manner. Nobody said they would become the predominant type of boat there, but I don't see why that topic is even interesting or what point it is trying to make.

Mark
Mark... Cats will not replace the mono in the colder high population areas as the boat of choice for RECREATIONAL USE. And recreational use is what the VAST majority of boats are used for in these regions.

Please go to google maps.... satellite view for NorthPort NY.. you can see more than a thousand moored boats... only 1 cat.... and none in the huge Britannia Marina.

THIS tells the story. NPT is 50 miles from NYC accessible to millions of people... a beautiful protected harbor... with lots of wealth and lots of middle and working class... The one guy who bought a Cat named Lamoka used to have a Contest 36s hahahaha

Cats will make very little market penetration where the vast majority of people live and use boats for recreational purposes.

Do cats pass through in season? YES when the scurry out of the hurricane zones... live aboards...

I do not dislike cats for some uses.... I do not like them for others... and all people are the same... they have to hot all the right notes and be affordable for their play.... if not they find something wbich is.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it

Last edited by SanderO; 02-25-2018 at 11:17 AM.
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post #180 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Mark... Cats will not replace the mono in the colder high population areas as the boat of choice for RECREATIONAL USE. And recreational use is what the VAST majority of boats are used for in these regions.

Please go to google maps.... satellite view for NorthPort NY.. you can see more than a thousand moored boats... only 1 cat.... and none in the huge Britannia Marina.

THIS tells the story. NPT is 50 miles from NYC accessible to millions of people... a beautiful protected harbor... with lots of wealth and lots of middle and working class... The one guy who bought a Cat named Lamoka used to have a Contest 36s hahahaha

Cats will make very little market penetration where the vast majority of people live and use boats for recreational purposes.

Do cats pass through in season? YES when the scurry out of the hurricane zones... live aboards...

I do not dislike cats for some uses.... I do not like them for others... and all people are the same... they have to hot all the right notes and be affordable for their play.... if not they find something wbich is.


Sounds to me your saying cats are used as cruising boats and don’t hang in one spot long?


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