Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs - Page 19 - SailNet Community
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post #181 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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I commented on the thought that although daggerboards are more complicated they may offer an advantage over the fixed keels of Chris’ boats. Both in safety and pointing. Would you care to discuss particular boats and design features or score points? If it’s a zero sum game you want. OK you win. However, I’d be delighted if you’ll share your knowledge and experience.
Geez, I thought all along I was attempting to share my knowledge and experience. I have responded to most posts, attempting to provide these aspects, but some of your posts were pretty dense with inaccuracies and unexamined biases that it would just take way too much effort to untangle them and put all of the individual points in perspective with knowledge and experience. If you care to bring forth more concise topics in a more open manner, I'd be happy to contribute.

I do attempt to respond to single issues, or posts with just a couple of issues, and I won't wade into intentional trolling threads, or topics I see as just picking fights. I differ from some here in this way.

AFAIK, fixed keels are a very recent thing with Chris White, and only exist on the one model. All previous designs have been daggerboards, and Chris White has been a daggerboard advocate since he started. Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is just a small example of how you are running with "knowledge" that you don't really have. This is why I urged you to do some more research before posting in such absolute terms, and even provided references to current production boat designers.

If you are interested in some perspective on daggerboards and LAR keels, Tony Grainger and Eric LeRouge built boats with each, and have some thoughts as to the tradeoffs: https://www.graingerdesigns.net/the-...s-fixed-keels/
Erik Lerouge

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post #182 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Out,

I agree, but I have tried it. For offshore fishing we run a 28 down east at 18-20 knots to get out 50 miles or so at a reasonable level of comfort. But the goal of that activity is to get to the place we want to put lines in the water as comfortably and fast as possible, because the fun really starts when the lines go in. The goal of a powerboat, for me at least, is to get there.

I've helped deliver some heavy displacement trawlers, and like running in relatively flat seas in the rain and fog while sipping a hot drink with the heat on glancing down at the radar. Some light air days in Maine in the fog/drizzle with rain gear in the cockpit of my little sailboat, I think, gee, a trawler would be nice. But then I remember the sunny day's beating into a 15-20 knot SW in Vineyard Sound, and the desire passes.

But for me, and that's the point here, for me, and not for you, I find trawlers comfortable, but not fun.

Let's also be clear, I'm not a full time live aboard, and never will be. I tried it, I get board. So my priorities are the experience of sailing for a few weeks at a time or even an afternoon. I'd probably think different about these priorities if I was to spend many months or years aboard, or do the passages you do from up here to the Caribbean. But I don't, and don't want to.

We all put our biases based on the way we use our boats into these discussions. I don't think there's a right and wrong way to waste your money on boats, there are just preferences based on how we each use them, and what part of the experience is most important to each of us.

And I also think, for those of us in the northlands, that threads like this give us something to do until the weather gets good .
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post #183 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Sounds to me your saying cats are used as cruising boats and don’t hang in one spot long?


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or for term charter... that is my impression... correct.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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post #184 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Mark... Cats will not replace the mono in the colder high population areas as the boat of choice for RECREATIONAL USE.
Again, I don't see why that topic is even interesting or what point it is trying to make.

The original point was the rapidly increasing global popularity and sales of catamarans. Some immediately took this topic and fearfully denied it based on looking out their local window, or claiming it is because of unwashed charterers, or because they are only large families cruising.

I attempted to bring perspective is all. I never stated that catamarans will be the predominant boat type in New England - in fact, I specifically stated they would not be, and gave good reasons.

But for some reason, you and others keep telling me I claim the opposite, and see my postings as supporting this falsehood.

But the real issue is that I don't see why this topic of catamarans in New England is even interesting or what point it is trying to make. For example, the Caribbean and Med are full of superyachts, but they are rare as local boats in New England outside of seasonal cruising. Does this mean that superyachts are not popular or not a large segment of the boating economy? Does it say anything about their relative numbers among boats being built?

Mark
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post #185 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Geez, I thought all along I was attempting to share my knowledge and experience. I have responded to most posts, attempting to provide these aspects, but some of your posts were pretty dense with inaccuracies and unexamined biases that it would just take way too much effort to untangle them and put all of the individual points in perspective with knowledge and experience. If you care to bring forth more concise topics in a more open manner, I'd be happy to contribute.

I do attempt to respond to single issues, or posts with just a couple of issues, and I won't wade into intentional trolling threads, or topics I see as just picking fights. I differ from some here in this way.

AFAIK, fixed keels are a very recent thing with Chris White, and only exist on the one model. All previous designs have been daggerboards, and Chris White has been a daggerboard advocate since he started. Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is just a small example of how you are running with "knowledge" that you don't really have. This is why I urged you to do some more research before posting in such absolute terms, and even provided references to current production boat designers.

If you are interested in some perspective on daggerboards and LAR keels, Tony Grainger and Eric LeRouge built boats with each, and have some thoughts as to the tradeoffs: https://www.graingerdesigns.net/the-...s-fixed-keels/
Erik Lerouge

Mark


Chris White has been using fixed keels in conjunction with daggerboards for years.

A great picture of the Atlantic 57 Anna during spring cleaning!

And Resolute, an Atlantic 48.
He also has a 54’ design with keels that was built in 1994.


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post #186 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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And I also think, for those of us in the northlands, that threads like this give us something to do until the weather gets good .
AHA! This is the best explanation for some of these posts that I have heard! I completely forgot that not everyone is sitting in pleasant, sunny, warm weather with crystal clear water.

My excuse is that we just dropped off the in-laws from a visit and are recovering doing laundry, shopping, etc before heading somewhere more interesting for a while.

Mark
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Some of us are cruising full time enjoying different cultures and a different lifestyle. Our choice of boat was more logical to us, rather than a "feeling" or something irrational or intangible. We certainly could not afford to do this by flying (even coach), and have spent lots of time in places inaccessible to anyone without a boat.

Mark
After reading through these comments I honestly think the disconnect is the difference in perspective between those that actually cruise full-time and those that sail seasonally. If you're cruising most months of the year it's really hard to argue against a multi. If you're not, it doesn't make sense to you.

I think we covered this in detail in the Oyster thread, but I suppose it needs to be said again.
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post #188 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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or for term charter... that is my impression... correct.


[emoji1303]I agree


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post #189 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Chris White has been using fixed keels in conjunction with daggerboards for years.

A great picture of the Atlantic 57 Anna during spring cleaning!

And Resolute, an Atlantic 48.
He also has a 54’ design with keels that was built in 1994.
Yes, but those fixed keels are very short and not intended as the main foils like full LAR keel boats (they are just 11" on the Atlantic 42, for example). He describes them mostly as a device to overcome some of the practical shortcomings of pure daggerboards for cruising boats. The keel on the 57 is 3', I believe, which is very short for that size boat.

He only recently moved to a pure LAR keel design without daggers at all.

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post #190 of 577 Old 02-25-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Yes, but those fixed keels are very short and not intended as the main foils like full LAR keel boats (they are just 11" on the Atlantic 42, for example). He describes them mostly as a device to overcome some of the practical shortcomings of pure daggerboards for cruising boats. The keel on the 57 is 3', I believe, which is very short for that size boat.



He only recently moved to a pure LAR keel design without daggers at all.



Mark


Yes, mainly used to protect rudders, running gear and to be able to take the ground easily.
I thought his 54’ design built in 1994 was just minikeels. I could be wrong, or it could be it was designed for daycharters.


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