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Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

70K views 579 replies 37 participants last post by  colemj 
#1 · (Edited)
For quite a while now there has been a huge interest in multihull cruising boats. At recent Annapolis Boat Shows there has been almost an equal area of water devoted to big multihulls as there has been to monohulls. There seems to be an equal number of multihull boat reviews in the major sailing magazines like Cruising World and Sail.

For some folks, multihulls seem to be the only way to go. For others they hold no appeal. For some on both sides of the mono and multi worldview, this topic is treated with near religious fervor. This thread was created to allow a civil discourse on a broad range of topics related to multihulls.

Hopefully this thread will provide a place for such topics as:
-Introduction and discussion of interesting new (or old) Multihull models
-Perceived 'whys and wherefores' of Multihull popularlity
-Multihull Technical issues
-Safety and seaworthiness
-Why you like or dislike multihulls
-experiences with Multihulls
-And other general Multihull related discussions.

While there are bound to be differences of opinions (and those are welcome within this thread and within SailNet in general), and bound to be some random amounts of thread drift, what will not be tolerated is personal attacks or dismissive comments.

Respectfully,
Jeff
 
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#147 ·
One thing is for sure...almost 2,000 views in less than 24 hours for this thread. Sure seems to be of interest to a lot of readers.

Hopefully it can stay on track and be fun, educational, and have some of the 80 current readers posting questions and insights of their own. There are not a lot of good discussion resources out there for people interested in multihull cruising.
 
#148 ·
Mark (and other multi sailors) - what is your strategy for truly heavy weather? Are you in the camp of a JSD (or equivalent) off the stern maintaining a controlled run that Hal Roth seems to advocate as the best all-round solution? Or do you prefer the drogue off the bow to avoid backing on the rudders?

Though there was seemingly a lot of confusion as to the exact problem with the rudders of the lost Alpha 42 BE GOOD II, I seem to recall they felt they'd been pushed backward by waves. This, in conjunction with what seems to be poor design and build of the steering system on that boat, did it in.

Just wondering.
 
#151 ·
Our main strategy for truly heavy weather is to stay out of it and out of the areas that create it. Our longest passages are 5-6 days, so forecasts play a large role. Most of our passages are 2-3 days, so forecasting is pretty accurate. We avoid passages through hurricane zones in hurricane season, and stay out of the North Atlantic during winter.

MarkJ gave a good accounting of how he avoids weather by using his noodle. This isn't boat-type related stuff.

If we needed to, I prefer a drogue. The JSI is probably the best for this. We have a single drogue on board. But I don't think a drogue is for truly heavy weather like tropical storms/hurricanes - it is more for slowing the boat down and keeping control in heavier weather than normal, but not crap hits the fan stuff. So far, we have only experienced 40kts on passages, and that was off the wind. Shortening sail to keep the boat speed <=8kts and letting the AP steer works fine for this. There won't be any backing on rudders when running with a drogue because you will still be going forward at 2-5kts.

The rudders on BG2 were woefully underbuilt. It was a larger boat than ours with larger rudders and used 1.37" hollow tube rudder posts with no rudder stops. For comparison, ours are 2" solid posts with stops bolted through a bulkhead. There were other problems with the steering system as well. The biggest mistake they made was taking the first boat of a brand new model design and build, pulling it out of the build shed untested, and heading straight into the North Atlantic in winter. That was just stupid.

Mark
 
#149 ·
Holy crap! Speaking of BE GOOD TOO - they found her...IN SCOTLAND...3 years after she was abandoned off North Carolina after the steering failure!!



But alas, she's capsized. Heh-heh.



Obviously abandoned cats with no steering are completely unfit for voyaging several years in the North Sea.

Duly noted.
 
#150 · (Edited)
In all seriousness, the story of this Alpha 42 is a cautionary tale that is applicable to this thread on many, many levels. Heavy weather, questionable decision-making, poor preparation, questionable design and construction, you name it...

http://www.wavetrain.net/news-a-views/558-helicopter-evacuation-abandoning-be-good-too

Here is the steering fix they had to try while offshore in really bad weather - using a freakin' allen wrench for a pin...



I don't think Alpha is around anymore.

Then you have the Wildcat line out of South Africa that went under because of poor building practices and customer/warrant service to address their poor quality. Remember Bumfuzzle?







Yet, after expensive repairs, they still took this boat the rest of the way around the world.

So, lots of good and bad out there.
 
#152 ·
"Prop walk" is less perceptable on a cat or any twin screw vessel because they are rotating in opposite directions when both in use and it is made even less perceptable if there is a sail drive, but just because cats have less perceptable prop walk than mono hull sailboats doesnt mean they have no prop walk. Thats like saying outboard motors on power boats have no prop walk.
 
#156 ·
From the BE GOOD TOO story here is more confirmation on the differences in motion/security between multis and monos (from Charlie Doane who knows a thing or two)...

Immediately after the hit we found we had trouble controlling the boat. It seemed at the time that our loss of forward momentum had made it hard to steer, and the boat started spinning in circles, tacking and then jibing. We started up the other engine, and even with both engines running hard we could not regain control. After our second uncontrolled jibe, Hank ordered that we should drop the mainsail and lie ahull to the waves. The wind by now was blowing over 40 knots from the south and seas were running about 18-20 feet.

Frankly, this was the one point in our whole adventure where I was most nervous. I have sailed in 40 knots or more several times, but I had never before just laid to the wind and let a boat drift broadside to waves in conditions like this. I had always believed this was a bad idea and that it is best to adopt more active tactics. But the boat was very happy. The beam of the Alpha 42 (we were aboard hull no. 1, which had just been delivered to Gunther and Doris) is very wide for a cruising cat of this size, with an unusually high bridgedeck, and we had remarked earlier that the hull was very stiff and its motion was remarkably comfortable. We now were amazed at how stable it seemed lying to these large seas. The rolling was not very pronounced and only rarely did waves slap the boat or land on deck.

That afternoon we contacted our weather-router, Ken McKinley, by sat-phone and he advised that we were now south of the Gulf Stream and that we could expect the wind to increase to 45 knots before switching to the west. We continued lying to the waves through the rest of the afternoon and all of the night, during which the wind did indeed increase into the mid-40s, with gusts to over 50. Gunther later insisted he saw one hit 60.The boat, however, was still quite comfortable, and we bided our time standing watches, reading, and sleeping.
So it sounds like Alpha had done a good job with the design - just completely undercut it all with the build quality.
 
#158 · (Edited)
Now THIS is interesting! Here is a video by the Distant Shores couple I linked to above. Their previous Southerly 48 was damaged in St. Maarten during Irma. At about 5 minutes in, she interviews Mike H. from Pantaenius Insurance who discusses the issues of insuring boats in named storms. You might be surprised what he says about cats in this situation - but will also get a bit of a reality check on what we're talking about in regards to hurricanes and why boat type matters little...



In any case, very good info regarding named-storm coverage regardless of your boat type.
 
#162 ·
We’ve chartered multi hulls twice in the Carribean. Definately like the extra room. Especially with a couple of couples on board.

I learned on a Hobie 16 and my daughter and I raced them for a number of years in her teens and were ranked in NJ where we had one on the beach in front of our house. Sailing two hulls takes a little getting used to in seas over 6 ft no doubt. Close hulled is a technique learned. I love the increase in speed they have.

I doubt cats will ever increase in the northeast where there are very few moorings and dock space is expensive,
The increased cost of a cat will further divide the younger sailors from purchasing them so the demographics of the cat crowd will continue
To be the aging sailors with disposable income


Fact is one of the biggest safety feature a monohull has in increased wind is its keel and the weight in the water . I would rather be in a displacement hull than a powerboT like ride skipping like a stone across the top of the water. I don’t need a lecture about the dagger boards etc, nothing like having 7- 10,0000 lbs planted 5 ft plus under the boat.

Cats will always have a specialized niche in sailing and racing , but become the majority.....I think not.
 
#163 ·
Mark I think you’ve made multiple presumptions. At present my favorite multi is a tri the Rapido 60 as some of my prior ocean racing was on tris. I posted on the R60 on this site when it first came out giving it my highest accolades. If I had the bucks I love what Nigel Irons has drawn. I pointed out White because of his novel thinking resulting in the Mastfoil rig which I believe is one of the few wing mast setups which won’t intimidate a mom and pop cruising couple. I like the cockpit in front of the house. An idea picked up since by other architects for some years now.
I have no issues with cats and would be delighted if you want to buy me a new Outremer. The salient point about twin rudders wasn’t that they are bad. They aren’t. Rather that it’s important they be executed in a stout manner. I have multiple friends cruising on cats and just like balanced spades on monos can have their issues if not done well the same applies on cats but with the added complexity when they’re farther apart. Hydraulics or linkages need to be spot on. I’ve listened to my colleagues discuss their experiences.
I’ve expressed on this thread and others demeaning cats, tris or monos as being less seaworthy than another group is just plain stupid. In each group there are definitely excellent seaboats. In each group what particulars result in a good sea boat differs but there are good and bad sea boats in each group as well. If we are to discuss interesting multi designs let’s do that. If we are to discuss seaworthiness let’s try to define what features add or detract from seaworthiness in multis. Posting videos or promotional snaps isn’t informative at a devil in the details level.
The tract record of the CW boats is unfortunate. The few I know about are used for voyaging which may impact on this record. I commented on the thought that although daggerboards are more complicated they may offer an advantage over the fixed keels of Chris’ boats. Both in safety and pointing. Would you care to discuss particular boats and design features or score points? If it’s a zero sum game you want. OK you win. However, I’d be delighted if you’ll share your knowledge and experience.
 
#181 ·
I commented on the thought that although daggerboards are more complicated they may offer an advantage over the fixed keels of Chris' boats. Both in safety and pointing. Would you care to discuss particular boats and design features or score points? If it's a zero sum game you want. OK you win. However, I'd be delighted if you'll share your knowledge and experience.
Geez, I thought all along I was attempting to share my knowledge and experience. I have responded to most posts, attempting to provide these aspects, but some of your posts were pretty dense with inaccuracies and unexamined biases that it would just take way too much effort to untangle them and put all of the individual points in perspective with knowledge and experience. If you care to bring forth more concise topics in a more open manner, I'd be happy to contribute.

I do attempt to respond to single issues, or posts with just a couple of issues, and I won't wade into intentional trolling threads, or topics I see as just picking fights. I differ from some here in this way.

AFAIK, fixed keels are a very recent thing with Chris White, and only exist on the one model. All previous designs have been daggerboards, and Chris White has been a daggerboard advocate since he started. Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is just a small example of how you are running with "knowledge" that you don't really have. This is why I urged you to do some more research before posting in such absolute terms, and even provided references to current production boat designers.

If you are interested in some perspective on daggerboards and LAR keels, Tony Grainger and Eric LeRouge built boats with each, and have some thoughts as to the tradeoffs: https://www.graingerdesigns.net/the-lab/daggerboards-vs-fixed-keels/
Erik Lerouge

Mark
 
#165 ·
I thought the new Atlantic 49 mastfoil didn’t have boards. Am I wrong? Is that his older 55 design?
The first multi I sailed was a CW wood epoxy tri while crewing in a Newport Bermuda. It had a daggerboard. Fast little thing but lousy motion in the absence of wind.
 
#166 ·
“Fins with adjustable flap
Two cored glass fiber fins moulded to hull bottoms, each with adjustable trailing edge flap controlled from nav station.”
From his website.

I have no experience with this feature on either mono or multi although aware of its use in early AC boats. Anyone have knowledge of this type of setup?
 
#168 ·
"Fins with adjustable flap
Two cored glass fiber fins moulded to hull bottoms, each with adjustable trailing edge flap controlled from nav station."
From his website.

I have no experience with this feature on either mono or multi although aware of its use in early AC boats. Anyone have knowledge of this type of setup?
Out,

Way back in the early 90's I got a ride on an AC boat as 17th crew. Oh yea, during the dark ages when AC was monohulls and no one wore helmets :). Don't ask me why I deserved this amount of fun, because I didn't. Right place, right time I guess.

I recall an inner wheel at the helm that could adjust the tab. I don't think that they played with it much, but I always assumed it was like flaps on an airplane, that would make sense to deploy at lower speeds to get more lift and would be turned straight at higher speed for less drag. Lift would translate to leeway.

And no, they didn't let me play with this or anything else, just go for the ride. Those carbon AC machines sure are noisy with lots of groans and a pile of stuff sounding wicked stressed. Pretty exciting for a mono :).
 
#170 · (Edited)
After reading much of this interesting thread as with many discussions comparing different "platforms" it comes down to the difficulty of comparing applies and oranges. Of course since there are SO MANY variables... it's way way more complex that comparing two fruits.

And let's not forget all the psychological factors which inform our opinions and feelings about things. This aspect is quite "irrational" and so it becomes a fool's errand to claim A "feels better" than B.

And even on the technical attributes which can be compared... one's assignment of priority is yet another variable. And each factor / design attribute has an up and down side.

Cats are popular and rightly so for term charter in the tropics. These are perfect platforms for large groups of people / families desiring a shared vacation. But the size may make little sense for the single handed or couple cruising up north who mostly go out on the water for the week end or club racing.

Cats are excellent solutions for some sets of criteria and not so for others. My sense is their success is largely driven by term charter and families who want to go for long term cruising through the tropics. They will not likely overtake monos in the temperate clients, more crowded with limited docking compared to demand.
 
#175 ·
Cats are popular and rightly so for term charter in the tropics. These are perfect platforms for large groups of people / families desiring a shared vacation. But the size may make little sense for the single handed or couple cruising up north who mostly go out on the water for the week end.

Cats are excellent solutions for some sets of criteria and not so for others. My sense is their success is largely driven by term charter and families who want to go for long term cruising through the tropics. They will not likely overtake monos in the temperate clients, more crowded with limited docking compared to demand.
I have been trying to point to how these statements are incorrect, and reflect only localized observations being stated as absolutes - and I think Smackdaddy has been doing similar by posting videos and blogs of people out cruising on catamarans.

Yes, the charter market has a lot of catamarans. They also have at least equal numbers of monohulls, and most likely greater numbers of monohulls.

There are many, many, many, people cruising on catamarans long term and long distance, and few of them are larger families. Right now, we are in an anchorage with 5 cruising catamarans and 1 monohull. The cruising cats consist of one single hander and four couples. The majority, by far, of cruising catamarans we meet are owned by couples. They are also a better platform for families, but the number of families out cruising in any type of boat is pretty low.

These are real observations from New England throughout the entire Caribbean, South, and Central America. Chesapeake Bay and New England during the summer get many catamarans cruising there, but they leave with the seasons - just as they previously left tropic climates during the summer season. I've already agreed that catamarans are not good solutions for short term seasonal sailing with winter layups. However, New England has already increased dramatically in full-time catamarans in its waters being used in this manner. Nobody said they would become the predominant type of boat there, but I don't see why that topic is even interesting or what point it is trying to make.

Mark
 
#172 ·
To Sander's point, I think that it is the irrational, intangible, perceptual stuff that is the most important.

Sailing doesn't make any sense. Why would you sail anywhere? If you've got a decent sized cruising boat, it would be cheaper and faster to fly first class on a 747 that goes to weather pretty nicely.

You do it for esthetics, for feel, for how it makes you feel, to feel the spray, to listen to the sea birds, to trim the sails just right, to turn the engine off and hear and feel and....

If you just want a big party platform when you get there, a power boat would work just fine.

But if you are here, there is something else going on for you. Not just getting there, the process of getting there using an old fashioned, slow, conveyance. It must have something to do with how that feels to you.

And it's precisely that fools errand that we are all engaged in discussing.
 
#176 ·
To Sander's point, I think that it is the irrational, intangible, perceptual stuff that is the most important.

Sailing doesn't make any sense. Why would you sail anywhere? If you've got a decent sized cruising boat, it would be cheaper and faster to fly first class on a 747 that goes to weather pretty nicely.

You do it for esthetics, for feel, for how it makes you feel, to feel the spray, to listen to the sea birds, to trim the sails just right, to turn the engine off and hear and feel and....

If you just want a big party platform when you get there, a power boat would work just fine.

But if you are here, there is something else going on for you. Not just getting there, the process of getting there using an old fashioned, slow, conveyance. It must have something to do with how that feels to you.

And it's precisely that fools errand that we are all engaged in discussing.
Some of us are cruising full time enjoying different cultures and a different lifestyle. Our choice of boat was more logical to us, rather than a "feeling" or something irrational or intangible. We certainly could not afford to do this by flying (even coach), and have spent lots of time in places inaccessible to anyone without a boat.

Mark
 
#174 · (Edited)
Gentlemen - I think we’re all over the place comparing apples to oranges between and in groups.
Even back in the day phrf racing you were taught “flat is fast”. Now you have a production builder selling monoramarans whatever the hell that is. Even my boat is happiest at ~20 degrees. More you just start digging a hole to leeward. Rail down is exciting but clearly time to reef as it’s slower. Current ocean monos with flatter runs like some heeling to be sure and need it to get best speed but again don’t like to be spilling air over the top of the square head. The ride is different than an Erik derived hull it’s not tender at first and then stiffens up but rather very stable once there’s a bone in her teeth at modest heel.
Ocean performance cats have a different issue. Being so fast aws progressively rises once the rags are up. With that awa progressively falls. After you’re going awhile you reef and tighten up. You may even need to do that again even in moderate air.
Experience is different. You’re on more of a beat ( relative to the wind not the sea) in higher wind if sailing to the performance envelope. There’s no “better” with this. It’s just different. Some find being on deck at a beat at higher speeds in higher wind tiring. Others find it delightful. Many cats have inside steering which is less likely to be available on monos so that’s another variable. Similarly comparing a Prout with its tiny blade main to a modern fractional or rotating mast rigged cat is like comparing a Westsail to a Pogo.
Agree with smj that we should talk more specifically as sometimes generalizations obscure relevant information.
 
#178 ·
CC appreciate your post but must say there’s something incredibly pleasant about being on a heavy displacement trawler ( think Norhavn, Selene, Diesel Duck) with the engine softly ticking over just trucking along offshore. Again this speaks to preconceived ideas leading to entrenched likes and dislikes that aren’t logical. As said to Mikey “try it...you’ll like it”.
 
#182 ·
Out,

I agree, but I have tried it. For offshore fishing we run a 28 down east at 18-20 knots to get out 50 miles or so at a reasonable level of comfort. But the goal of that activity is to get to the place we want to put lines in the water as comfortably and fast as possible, because the fun really starts when the lines go in. The goal of a powerboat, for me at least, is to get there.

I've helped deliver some heavy displacement trawlers, and like running in relatively flat seas in the rain and fog while sipping a hot drink with the heat on glancing down at the radar. Some light air days in Maine in the fog/drizzle with rain gear in the cockpit of my little sailboat, I think, gee, a trawler would be nice. But then I remember the sunny day's beating into a 15-20 knot SW in Vineyard Sound, and the desire passes.

But for me, and that's the point here, for me, and not for you, I find trawlers comfortable, but not fun.

Let's also be clear, I'm not a full time live aboard, and never will be. I tried it, I get board. So my priorities are the experience of sailing for a few weeks at a time or even an afternoon. I'd probably think different about these priorities if I was to spend many months or years aboard, or do the passages you do from up here to the Caribbean. But I don't, and don't want to.

We all put our biases based on the way we use our boats into these discussions. I don't think there's a right and wrong way to waste your money on boats, there are just preferences based on how we each use them, and what part of the experience is most important to each of us.

And I also think, for those of us in the northlands, that threads like this give us something to do until the weather gets good :).
 
#186 ·
And I also think, for those of us in the northlands, that threads like this give us something to do until the weather gets good :).
AHA! This is the best explanation for some of these posts that I have heard! I completely forgot that not everyone is sitting in pleasant, sunny, warm weather with crystal clear water.

My excuse is that we just dropped off the in-laws from a visit and are recovering doing laundry, shopping, etc before heading somewhere more interesting for a while.

Mark
 
#194 ·
Again, I would argue that the main purpose of those keels is protection and not foils.

Personally, I like the concept and would prefer a dagger boat to use it. I never have a good feeling seeing rudders and saildrives several feet below the hull on many dagger boats. The extra drag of short keels doesn't appear to be so bad.

Mark
 
#196 ·
One difference I've begun to notice, between mono-hulls and multi-hulls, is multi hull owners are very sensitive and defensive of their choice. Maybe it's because mono-hull owners are unenlightened and misinformed, but it sure seems to run deeper than that.

It's typical of human club dynamics. Identify a minority (and yes, multis are still a global minority, which is different from being the fastest growing segment) and that minority is often on the look out for discrimination or criticism. In fact, some personalities are drawn to the minority, because they love being different and arguing about it. Kind of like a NY Jet's or Met's fan. :)
 
#197 ·
One difference I've begun to notice, between mono-hulls and multi-hulls, is multi hull owners are very sensitive and defensive of their choice. Maybe it's because mono-hull owners are unenlightened and misinformed, but it sure seems to run deeper than that.

It's typical of human club dynamics. Identify a minority (and yes, multis are still a global minority, which is different from being the fastest growing segment) and that minority is often on the look out for discrimination or criticism. In fact, some personalities are drawn to the minority, because they love being different and arguing about it. Kind of like a NY Jet's or Met's fan. :)
The problem with your argument is that SMJ and I are the only actual multihull owners posting on this thread (if you exclude beach cats). Maybe PDQ32 (Drew, I don't remember his current avatar name) also posted here. If you would like to point out specific posts of ours that are sensitive and defensive, that might be more helpful. Both of us have attempted to add knowledge and experience to specific points and have mostly stayed out of the silly stuff. Both of us have owned monohulls, and neither of us have damned them in any way.

Using your logic and direction, it is typical human dynamics for a majority to view an emerging minority as a threat and to suppress that minority using false information and sweeping generalization.

But that doesn't sound like you, does it? So why are you projecting a similar line of reasoning on others? Please save the pop psychology for another forum. If you have an issue with Jeff H's thread here, and the specific topics he wished discussed, either stay out of it or take it up with him.

Speaking of interesting pop psychology, who starts, and participates in, the troll threads like capsizing multis, and who stays completely out of them?

Interesting indeed. Hope you kept your day job.

Mark
 
#198 ·
Good link. Thanks.
Can see why for cruising fixed keels may have benefits for cats but would think in a tri there’s no other reasonable choice than a board. I’ve never seen a centerboard on a decent sized tri only a daggerboard. Is there a reason?
 
#199 ·
I've never seen a centerboard on a decent sized tri only a daggerboard. Is there a reason?
Probably interior space intrusion and the supporting structure can't be balanced against a bulkhead well, so requires additional engineering. Daggers are also higher performance, and usually lighter and simpler to build and maintain.

Mark
 
#204 ·
Well, I'm not attempting to do anything really. I think I am presenting more perspective and experience than facts - because much of this stuff isn't about facts per se (like Capecodda's questions and opinions). I have tried to shut down unexamined biases, sweeping generalizations, and bad logic by using reasoning.

It is funny that I get accused of being sensitive about catamarans on this thread, while taking heat for supporting a monohull on another thread.

Maybe the posse could just post a list of acceptable topics and responses so we don't run afoul of them so often?

Mark
 
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