Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs - Page 52 - SailNet Community
 178Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #511 of 577 Old 03-19-2018
Senior Member
 
FSMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida/Bahamas
Posts: 846
Thanks: 3
Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Smack - there are two advantages to daggerboards (or centerboards). In addition to giving increased pointing ability when lowered, they give the advantage of really shallow draft when raised.
My current cat draws 3'7" with keels, it would probably be a foot less if she had boards and kick up rudders. I think this difference is greater on the larger cats.

It's wonderful to be able to anchor safely in the Bahamas in 5 or 6' of water. The monos can't drag down on you because they'll run aground lol.

While I think about it, in regards to an earlier post of yours referring to getting used to where the corners of the boat are, on non-heeling boats you just amble to the other side of the cockpit and look. I do that while docking, under sail, whatever. It's easy when the boat's on the level.

Whatever you decide to get, enjoy!

Sail Fast Live Slow
36' Solaris Sunstar catamaran
FSMike is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #512 of 577 Old 03-19-2018
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,467
Thanks: 226
Thanked 227 Times in 216 Posts
Rep Power: 0
     
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Great feedback. Thanks Mike! I especially like the thought of going where no mono has been before.

The Solaris is a nice boat BTW...



PS - Am I seeing this right that these have mini bow-bulbs?


Last edited by smackdaddy; 03-19-2018 at 10:56 PM.
smackdaddy is offline  
post #513 of 577 Old 03-19-2018
Senior Member
 
FSMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida/Bahamas
Posts: 846
Thanks: 3
Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

LOL! Thank you, that's her in the top picture. The bottom picture is a different design. Solaris made a number of boats with "sun" in the name. Mine is a Sunstar, originally designed by Erik LeRouge who designed the Manta and many others.
Just recently put her on the market, details and more pics at the broker's website, finishlineotc.com.
Somebody buy her, might take a folding tri in partial trade, just don't tell my wife.

Sail Fast Live Slow
36' Solaris Sunstar catamaran

Last edited by FSMike; 03-19-2018 at 11:04 PM.
FSMike is offline  
 
post #514 of 577 Old 03-19-2018
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,467
Thanks: 226
Thanked 227 Times in 216 Posts
Rep Power: 0
     
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

No WAY!!!! MANDOLIN is yours?

We'll there you go. Unintentional promotion!
smackdaddy is offline  
post #515 of 577 Old 03-19-2018
Senior Member
 
FSMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida/Bahamas
Posts: 846
Thanks: 3
Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Yep, Mandolin's my girl, technically Mandolin IV.

The original was a 26' double ended gaff rigger. I named her that because she was "a small well crafted instrument that played beautiful music". The name has been with me and my boats ever since.

We now return you to your original thread.
smackdaddy likes this.

Sail Fast Live Slow
36' Solaris Sunstar catamaran
FSMike is offline  
post #516 of 577 Old 03-20-2018
smj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 321
Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Mandolin used to be ours, but under a different name[emoji16]. The Sunstar was known as a mini Manta, started life as a LeRouge designed Jeffcat 32 then I believe the molds were sold and she became the Passion 32. LeRouge doesn’t recognize either the Sunstar or Manta being his design as they were both built quite a bit heavier than his specs.
Also a couple of other advantages to daggerboards are, less wetted surface when pulled up sailing downwind and the ability to increase leeway therefore giving the possibility of a better point of sail while maintaining your desired course.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
smackdaddy likes this.

Last edited by smj; 03-20-2018 at 09:23 AM.
smj is online now  
post #517 of 577 Old 03-21-2018
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 2,901
Thanks: 4
Thanked 118 Times in 112 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - another question for the multi guys - daggerboards.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, daggerboards are primarily for upwind sailing. And, from what I understand, they buy you another 10° or so of pointing - putting you in roughly the same range off the wind as a mono.

BUT - the arguments go that "well-designed" fixed-keels will get you within 5° of that, and that the added rigging, mechanics, etc. for daggerboards is not worth it in the long run unless most of your sailing will upwind and/or racing.

What do you guys think? If 10° - or especially 5° - is really all I'm losing, I'm not sure it's something I'd insist on.
You can't really look at it that way because in almost all cases, you will be comparing apples to oranges because you will be comparing completely different hull designs. For example, an Outremer 45 with daggers is going to far outpoint and go faster upwind than a Lagoon 450. Probably more than 10*, but also with a much better VMG.

What you need for your analysis is the same boat built with daggers and mini keels.

Erik LeRouge has done just that, and builds many of his boats both ways. I think I remember Derek Kelsall and possibly Kurt Hughes have also. I believe Chris White has done engineering analysis along this line (don't know if he actually built any both ways). In these cases - the same boat with different keel/daggers - they found that the performance differences were not that great, and mostly manifested in light air. But there were measurable performance differences across the board. LeRouge stated that daggers were definitely needed for higher performance, but that a cruising tradeoff of mini keels was a reasonable one for their benefits, while still retaining reasonable performance.

However, they build fast hulls. I don't think sticking daggers on a Lagoon 450 is going to help it much.

So the dagger/no dagger debate is really a proxy for what type of hull shape and boat philosophy one has/wants. Catanas and Outremers are not higher performance boats because they have dagger boards. They are higher performance because they have narrower longer hulls, lighter weights, and better proportioned weight distributions than Lagoons and Fountaine Pajots. Put mini keels on the Catanas and Outremers and they will still walk away from the Lagoons and Fountaine Pajots. Put daggers on the Lagoons and FP's and it won't help them much.

However, put 8,000lbs of stuff on them and the Lagoons and FP's might just walk away from them.

The dagger catamarans I've sailed go upwind very, very well. Better than almost all cruising monohulls, and the same as the more performance cruising monohulls. They also do better than similar build mini keel catamarans. The difference is real, but the tradeoffs are also.

Personally, I like sailing dagger catamarans, and when we are in light air, or hard on the wind needing to pinch, I wish we had daggers. For all other times, I am happier with mini keels. An approach like Chris White's of a foil stub for protections and sitting on, combined with daggers, is probably the best.

Mark

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #518 of 577 Old 03-21-2018
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,467
Thanks: 226
Thanked 227 Times in 216 Posts
Rep Power: 0
     
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

I see what you mean Mark. Thanks for that.
smackdaddy is offline  
post #519 of 577 Old 03-21-2018
Senior Member
 
FSMike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Florida/Bahamas
Posts: 846
Thanks: 3
Thanked 26 Times in 26 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
----- An approach like Chris White's of a foil stub for protections and sitting on, combined with daggers, is probably the best.

Mark
I think Mark is right.
I spent about 10 years aboard a Chris White design, one he designated a Voyager 45. She had two keels and one daggerboard. Draft was 3'6" (I think) board up, and 7'3" board down. We rarely used the board because the boat sailed so well without it. Chris White can draw a hell of a boat. We did use it occasionally in light air, or when we were trying to point really high for some reason, or in one of the infrequent races we entered.
Should be able to find this boat on Chris' web site, I think under custom catamarans or some such.
smackdaddy likes this.

Sail Fast Live Slow
36' Solaris Sunstar catamaran
FSMike is offline  
post #520 of 577 Old 03-22-2018
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Georgia
Posts: 431
Thanks: 2
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 6
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Okay - another question for the multi guys - daggerboards.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, daggerboards are primarily for upwind sailing. And, from what I understand, they buy you another 10° or so of pointing - putting you in roughly the same range off the wind as a mono.

BUT - the arguments go that "well-designed" fixed-keels will get you within 5° of that, and that the added rigging, mechanics, etc. for daggerboards is not worth it in the long run unless most of your sailing will upwind and/or racing.

What do you guys think? If 10° - or especially 5° - is really all I'm losing, I'm not sure it's something I'd insist on.
Multi-hulls with deep hulls suffer with the same problems that mono-hulls suffer with breaking water, except for the fact that the external ballast in mono's will SOMETIMES allow them to recover. A multi-hull inverted will remain inverted. Shallow hulled mono-hulls and multi-hulls are inherently safer in breaking water. The daggerboard/centerboard is simply a way out of the conundrum of shallow draft and up wind ability. . The Chris White tris are an excellent case in point. The Hammerhead has a two and one half foot draft board up and a nine foot draft board down. Superior safety and superior upwind performance. PS. And no pounding going upwind.

Last edited by seabeau; 03-22-2018 at 08:40 AM.
seabeau is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Popularity of center cockpits? manhattan08 General Discussion (sailing related) 49 03-13-2013 05:53 PM
McDell riding the popularity wave - Stuff.co.nz NewsReader News Feeds 0 11-14-2012 07:20 PM
New Beneteau Designs eragbag Beneteau 5 11-05-2007 04:06 PM
Shore Course grows in popularity - Port Huron Times Herald NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-09-2006 11:15 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome