Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs - Page 57 - SailNet Community
 178Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #561 of 577 Old 05-17-2018
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,467
Thanks: 226
Thanked 227 Times in 216 Posts
Rep Power: 0
     
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

In seriousness, I don't know how many of you guys have actually raced boats before, but many - if not most - close races are won or lost on the upwind leg. Tacking is obviously a critical part of that. And doing it very well, maintaining speed and good VMG, is very difficult to do consistently.

I regret that my statement that "most monohull sailors" tack poorly hurt people's feelings. I suppose I should have separated racers from cruisers with that statement.

As a monohull sailor who did quite a few offshore races with inshore upwind starts...after LOTS of practice as a team, I/we tacked better than most in our fleets which gave us better starts on those races. And we were given awards for that - when not everyone got one. I now understand we shouldn't have accepted those.

Even so, I still don't think I/we tack nearly as well as, say, the VOR racers on their in-ports. And I'm okay with that. It doesn't hurt my feelings.

I'm sure each and every monohull sailor above will easily beat me on an upwind run. I hope that helps.

Now - back to multihulls - one shouldn't blame the boat for one's inability to sail upwind. I'm still learning how to do it well on our beachcat. It's not nearly as easy as it was on our C27. And I'm pretty sure it's not FIASCO's fault.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 05-17-2018 at 12:04 PM.
smackdaddy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #562 of 577 Old 05-17-2018
Moderator
 
Arcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 4,114
Thanks: 217
Thanked 211 Times in 206 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Wow.

What I meant to say is that all monohull sailors are just dandy. They are all people with feelings who do everything they do to the best of their abilities...including superb tacking.
What I am saying, is the sailor isn't defined by the type of boat he owns. It's irrelevant, it's a red herring.

I thought you would understand this as the Captain and owner of a spirit 17. Interesting that you think the sailors ability should be defined by the type of boat they own.
Arcb is offline  
post #563 of 577 Old 05-17-2018
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,467
Thanks: 226
Thanked 227 Times in 216 Posts
Rep Power: 0
     
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
What I am saying, is the sailor isn't defined by the type of boat he owns. It's irrelevant, it's a red herring.

I thought you would understand this as the Captain and owner of a spirit 17. Interesting that you think the sailors ability should be defined by the type of boat they own.
Arc, I know you and a few other like to stir up fights - but I honestly have no idea the point you're trying to make here.

Here's the deal. It was said in one of these multi threads recently something to the effect that a "professional racer" who had sailed multis his whole life lamented the fact that he couldn't tack a multi through 120. This is without doubt blaming the boat...a multi. And it is completely wrong on almost every level I can think of. And not one mono sailor here challenged that assertion.

So, instead of getting into a fight about it, I simply posted a video here showing a charter cat getting some impressive speed upwind while being helmed/crewed by plump old dudes...not merely struggling to make way 60 off that wind.

And it has been said ad infinitum on this and most other sailing forums that cats are "poor upwind peformers". A blanket statement. That is a fact...though I'm sure some will argue otherwise because it's what they do.

So, again, I don't know what you're wanting to fight about here. I think you've summed it up very nicely...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
...some folks just have differing levels of sailing ability, no point in blaming it on their equipment.
That's what I was saying.

Sincerely,

The Captain and owner of a spirit 17 (what are you implying there BTW?)

Last edited by smackdaddy; 05-17-2018 at 12:29 PM.
smackdaddy is offline  
 
post #564 of 577 Old 05-17-2018
Moderator
 
Arcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Eastern Ontario
Posts: 4,114
Thanks: 217
Thanked 211 Times in 206 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

I'm not implying anything. You own a small inexpensive trailer sailer just like me.

I am proud of mine, as I am sure you are of yours
chef2sail likes this.
Arcb is offline  
post #565 of 577 Old 05-17-2018
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,467
Thanks: 226
Thanked 227 Times in 216 Posts
Rep Power: 0
     
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcb View Post
I'm not implying anything. You own a small inexpensive trailer sailer just like me.

I am proud of mine, as I am sure you are of yours
Ah, I see. Well, I usually don't point out the size and cost of people's actual boats as any kind of differentiator in these sailing discussions.

I love boats of all kinds. And we're all sailors.

I'm sorry I presumed anything other than complete innocence.
smackdaddy is offline  
post #566 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 21,360
Thanks: 84
Thanked 605 Times in 581 Posts
Rep Power: 12
   
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

A critical and incorrect comment is made about most mono sailors. Then the apology for it comes with a snarky attitude about hurt feelings and an accusation that someone else is starting a fight.

This will never change.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Minnewaska is offline  
post #567 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,931
Thanks: 145
Thanked 212 Times in 202 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Mark we maybe saying the same thing in different ways but would note the fair number of daggerboard cats successfully cruised. Agree you tend to see a spare board secured on deck. As you know inspite of the focus here on extreme weather light air is overwhelmingly more common when cruising.
In the last few years been seeing and increasing number of rotating masts on cruising boats. Not just Chris White Atlantics mastfoils. A number of NZ one offs hang in my winter cruising grounds. Over drinks other than needing to go to the foot of the mast to reef those folks report no issues. The increase in performance can’t be denied.
Similarly many modern multis sail day and night in double digits. In the above scenario have seen people either drop the headsail and under trim the main, drop the main (thinking its harder to get down in a hurry if things continue to build), go to the rotating mast alone, go dww or at least downwind to slow the boat and sort themselves out. I’m personally aware of several cruising multis were the owners tell me regardless of twa just about every sail is a beat.
Foils on a hinge located at the toenail are now offered on monos. Foils are part of the design of the rudder(s) of some production multis such as the Rapido.
If I hear you right this level of multi hull performance in a cruising boat maybe excessive. Still it fascinates me as someone who celebrates a 200m day to think about routine 300m -400m days.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
post #568 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
Senior Member
 
colemj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the boat cruising
Posts: 3,516
Thanks: 5
Thanked 147 Times in 139 Posts
Rep Power: 17
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

For sure, lots of dagger cats cruising - I didn't mean to imply differently. Breaking a board is no different than breaking anything else on a boat; it happens once in a while. I've never seen a boat cruising with a spare board and don't see the need. After all, like many things on catamarans there are two of them, and the boat sails just fine with one board. I think Kurt Hughes even designs his boats with a single board.

Rotating masts only increase performance if the boat is designed for performance and kept scrupulously light. Few cruising boats fit this unless they are large ones. The disadvantage for cruising is more complicated rigging and difficulty with wind instruments and other mast head stuff.

I've never seen a foiling monohull out cruising and can't see how bolting a foil to a toe rail will accomplish this. Even if possible, I don't see foiling boats as practical cruising boats. Weeds, logs, bad seas, etc. Not to mention trying to fix them outside of tech places. The only foiling catamaran touted as a cruising boat flipped over while sailing in protected water.

Mark

Dolphin 460 Catamaran "Reach"

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Current boat

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- Previous boat
colemj is offline  
post #569 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
Senior Member
 
outbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NE & Windwards
Posts: 6,931
Thanks: 145
Thanked 212 Times in 202 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

Ill try to find a link if I get a chance while waiting for paint and varnish to dry. But its pretty clever. L shaped foiled hinged were they cross the toerail and placed about midship. Open ocean they rotate down and provide upward lift as well as prevent falling to leeward. Where there might be debris, or docked or not necessary they rotate up to be over the deck and house but under the boom. There are videos of actual boats utilizing this technology. Standard shoal draft keels are used to generate a good Gz curve. Clever.
Guess it depends on what you think is large as regards rotating masts. See them on boats 45 and above.
The weight thing is true for both mono and multi and motor. Load up a Pogo or Artnautica 58 or cf one off mono or multi you are defeating the NAs intentions. The result is in spite of the obvious possibilities of greater performance for multis in practice over long cruises its not that great.
Mr. Perry can be paraphrased as saying displacement means load carrying capability with less performance penalty but light is fast. This is an issue for performance multis when program is cruising and supports the view enhanced performance has penalties for a cruiser.

s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
outbound is online now  
post #570 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 17,467
Thanks: 226
Thanked 227 Times in 216 Posts
Rep Power: 0
     
Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

I take it all back...this guy is a rockstar...


On this topic of sailing upwind and tacking, even with our crappy, bagged-out, unshapable sails on that C27, we got pretty good at sailing upwind (note the windex)...



Is this just pinching? Well it can be a fine line. One of our proudest accomplishments on that lake was beating a Beneteau 345 upwind (friendly race) back to the marina. Talking at the dock he was blown away that a C27 could sail that tight and fast - especially with crappy sails. I assured him it wasn't the equipment. Heh-heh.

Even though the usual group above are trying to paint my comment as another "attack" of some sort (a seriously tiresome game) - my point remains that most leisure sailors cannot sail upwind or tack very well - certainly not compared to racing sailors (the example in that 120 story I mentioned). That's just the truth. Over the years of racing we got pretty good at it - but I still don't consider myself great...despite the pickle dishes. It's a serious art...and those pickle dishes were mostly offshore regattas with a lot of cruising boats...not hardcore racers.

Try roll tacking a 420. Oh, sorry, that's for the cannabis thread.

I have no doubt I'm going to have a huge learning curve for getting good upwind performance and solid tacks out of our cruising multi when the time comes. But I also have no doubt that with practice I'll get pretty good at it (if I care enough to try that hard) - and will very likely be able to out-sail many, if not most cruising monos upwind. Our little beach cat is teaching us a lot in that regard. Kinda like that 420.

I already know for sure I couldn't beat FIASCO! back to the marina in our B345-crushing-C27 on this same lake. And that's saying something.

In the mean time, I encourage everyone that was offended above to post photos or videos of their upwind sailing and tacking to show me how it's done. I'm always eager to learn.

Last edited by smackdaddy; 05-18-2018 at 12:01 PM.
smackdaddy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Popularity of center cockpits? manhattan08 General Discussion (sailing related) 49 03-13-2013 04:53 PM
McDell riding the popularity wave - Stuff.co.nz NewsReader News Feeds 0 11-14-2012 06:20 PM
New Beneteau Designs eragbag Beneteau 5 11-05-2007 03:06 PM
Shore Course grows in popularity - Port Huron Times Herald NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-09-2006 10:15 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome