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post #571 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Guess it depends on what you think is large as regards rotating masts. See them on boats 45í and above.
.
What I meant was that a cruising boat that wants to carry significant weight of amenities and such must be large enough to do so and still benefit from a rotating mast. Any size boat kept light and to spec will benefit from a rotating mast, but few smaller ones will be able to carry much weight and still benefit.

I still maintain a RM does not provide a significant advantage in overall cruising and passage making. Upwind in lighter air is where almost all of the advantage of a RM lies, and this is not a typical point of sail for a cruising boat. Once reefed or off wind, the advantages are mostly gone.

For example, we spend months at a time in the Caribbean with at least one reef in our sail, and almost all reaching.

And I still don't see the practicality of cruising a foil boat as you describe. It would be something exactly opposite of what I would want to deal with while cruising.

I suppose a cruising style of spending a few months a year in the eastern Caribbean or Mediterranean mostly day sailing would make these things appealing, but full-time cruising in more remote areas with them give me pause.

I am not disparaging the above style - we know lots of people and friends who do this type of cruising.

Mark

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post #572 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

When it comes time to purchase our cat, I will intentionally avoid rotating masts. They just make no sense on a cruising boat as far as I'm concerned...adding liability for no real return.

And as for foils on monos - the whole thing just seems absurd to me, especially for cruising boats. I might change my mind at the next AC, but for now it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen...



But hey, no heel. The wives will love them.
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post #573 of 577 Old 05-18-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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- and will very likely be able to out-sail many, if not most cruising monos upwind.
If you are talking about the individual sailors on those monohulls, then I will leave you to that discussion.

If you are talking about the boat ability itself, then you will need to more precisely define that.

Your Helia 44 (say) will beat an Island Packet 44 (say), but not a Bene 45.

And if there is a heavy seas or high short chop, you probably won't be beating many monohulls.

But I understand your underlying point. I attempted to get this thread to define monohulls when discussing performances instead of simply starting the debate by characterising monohulls in general as the performance standard.

It seems like that is the turd on the floor everyone refuses to acknowledge.

The truth is that a very large number of cruising monohulls out here start out as poorer performance designs, and are further made worse with large arches, solar panels, rails filled with fuel jugs, big Bimini shades, older sails, etc. Even more performance oriented ones are brought to mediocre by the desires of practicality and comfort.

And practicality and comfort does become paramount for a significant number of longer term cruisers. This is where most catamarans start with an advantage.

Full disclosure: we are a very overloaded catamaran and our performance suffers greatly from when we weren't. We do live comfortably and still make decent passage times (we plan for 6kts, and usually average 6.5-7.5 on passages - if we were within manufacture loaded displacement specs we would average 8-9kts).

Mark
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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But I understand your underlying point. I attempted to get this thread to define monohulls when discussing performances instead of simply starting the debate by characterising monohulls in general as the performance standard.

It seems like that is the turd on the floor everyone refuses to acknowledge.
That's why I always try to use a qualifier like "most". It's the over-generalizations in these discussions that really make it impossible to prove anything empirically.

I remember in one of these multi threads, maybe this one, that someone ironically accused "multihull sailors of being very sensitive/defensive", etc. because you were trying to explain why many of these generalizations didn't hold water. That kind of thing is the turd on the floor as far as I'm concerned.

I've been a mono sailor since the beginning. I have nothing against monos. But I won't buy another one. And I'll be looking for that B45. I think I can take him.

Farewell.

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post #575 of 577 Old 05-19-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
If you are talking about the individual sailors on those monohulls, then I will leave you to that discussion.

If you are talking about the boat ability itself, then you will need to more precisely define that.

Your Helia 44 (say) will beat an Island Packet 44 (say), but not a Bene 45.

And if there is a heavy seas or high short chop, you probably won't be beating many monohulls.

But I understand your underlying point. I attempted to get this thread to define monohulls when discussing performances instead of simply starting the debate by characterising monohulls in general as the performance standard.

It seems like that is the turd on the floor everyone refuses to acknowledge.

The truth is that a very large number of cruising monohulls out here start out as poorer performance designs, and are further made worse with large arches, solar panels, rails filled with fuel jugs, big Bimini shades, older sails, etc. Even more performance oriented ones are brought to mediocre by the desires of practicality and comfort.

And practicality and comfort does become paramount for a significant number of longer term cruisers. This is where most catamarans start with an advantage.

Full disclosure: we are a very overloaded catamaran and our performance suffers greatly from when we weren't. We do live comfortably and still make decent passage times (we plan for 6kts, and usually average 6.5-7.5 on passages - if we were within manufacture loaded displacement specs we would average 8-9kts).

Mark
I agree.

Even amongst mono owners you have great divisions between performance boats like C&C . and boats who sell to a condominium crowd like Hunter.

If this thread is only about cruisers like you are there is the niche where the catamarans May make inroads,. If the thread is about charter boats, certainly we see the catamarans as viable as people like the comfort spread out view . If the thread is about your 3very day weekender sailor catamarans have a disadvantage because of cost, dockage costs, and other factors.

It depends on your purpose for a boat. While build quality is great on Island Packets, they suck big time going to windward. Conmfort on the hook unbeatable. Most posters on SN are not cruisers , most are mono owners come up through the ranks,

To each his own...the only time I saw pushback on 5nis thread was when preposterous overstatement about either mono or catamarans are made . Personally I donít think cats by nature are more dangerous, however if I had to survive a lRge wind sea event and had to choose between a 44 Hylas and a catamRan off similar size I would prefer the 17,000 of lead 5 feet below me.
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post #576 of 577 Old 05-20-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I agree.

Even amongst mono owners you have great divisions between performance boats like C&C . and boats who sell to a condominium crowd like Hunter.

If this thread is only about cruisers like you are there is the niche where the catamarans May make inroads,. If the thread is about charter boats, certainly we see the catamarans as viable as people like the comfort spread out view . If the thread is about your 3very day weekender sailor catamarans have a disadvantage because of cost, dockage costs, and other factors.

It depends on your purpose for a boat. While build quality is great on Island Packets, they suck big time going to windward. Conmfort on the hook unbeatable. Most posters on SN are not cruisers , most are mono owners come up through the ranks,

To each his own...the only time I saw pushback on 5nis thread was when preposterous overstatement about either mono or catamarans are made . Personally I donít think cats by nature are more dangerous, however if I had to survive a lRge wind sea event and had to choose between a 44 Hylas and a catamRan off similar size I would prefer the 17,000 of lead 5 feet below me.
This really hits the nail on the head. Thanks. So much of the discussion boils down to each person's individual circumstances, preferences and needs.

Almost all these sorts of decisions involves compromises and trade offs... such as windward ability and comfort... For example, Shiva has high freeboard... it gives us the advantages of a flush deck and 6'+ head room below. But we pay a price in windage and she yaws about on the hook. To me this is an OK compromise.... most of the time the winds are not a freeboard issue. We avoid passages to windward... or doing them when the wind it well forward of the beam. We wait or go with lighter wind... We don't have a schedule and can do that... or just pick a destination which gives us fairer winds. Of course we get "stuck" and have to sail to windward and will at times use the iron genny to point higher and make more VMG to our destination.

Designs like boats and cars are compromises which prioritize various aspects. Sure some designs do this better than others. Some solutions are historically proven as successful. And that is what interesting design features are about.
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post #577 of 577 Old 05-20-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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In seriousness, I don't know how many of you guys have actually raced boats before, but many - if not most - close races are won or lost on the upwind leg. Tacking is obviously a critical part of that. And doing it very well, maintaining speed and good VMG, is very difficult to do consistently.

I regret that my statement that "most monohull sailors" tack poorly hurt people's feelings. I suppose I should have separated racers from cruisers with that statement.

As a monohull sailor who did quite a few offshore races with inshore upwind starts...after LOTS of practice as a team, I/we tacked better than most in our fleets which gave us better starts on those races. And we were given awards for that - when not everyone got one. I now understand we shouldn't have accepted those.

Even so, I still don't think I/we tack nearly as well as, say, the VOR racers on their in-ports. And I'm okay with that. It doesn't hurt my feelings.

I'm sure each and every monohull sailor above will easily beat me on an upwind run. I hope that helps.

Now - back to multihulls - one shouldn't blame the boat for one's inability to sail upwind. I'm still learning how to do it well on our beachcat. It's not nearly as easy as it was on our C27. And I'm pretty sure it's not FIASCO's fault.
Carrying speed and good VMG through a tack is more difficult on some boats than others but that doesn't mean that those who sail boats that tack very easily are lesser sailors than those who sail boats that are difficult to tack. They are doing what is necessary to tack their boat well and whether or not that same technique would also work well on a cat means next to nothing. The important thing is to sail the particular boat you are aboard at the time as well as possible and that means learning all its idiosyncracies and adapting your sailing style to them and that takes awhile for all of us. Once you actually own and sail a cruising cat regularly that process will begin for you and THEN you'll be qualified to expound on mono sailors vs cat sailors and what each group is doing wrong, but hopefully by that time your broadened perspective will make doing that seem less attractive to you than it apparently is at this time. After all, miracles do happen.....
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