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Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

70K views 579 replies 37 participants last post by  colemj 
#1 · (Edited)
For quite a while now there has been a huge interest in multihull cruising boats. At recent Annapolis Boat Shows there has been almost an equal area of water devoted to big multihulls as there has been to monohulls. There seems to be an equal number of multihull boat reviews in the major sailing magazines like Cruising World and Sail.

For some folks, multihulls seem to be the only way to go. For others they hold no appeal. For some on both sides of the mono and multi worldview, this topic is treated with near religious fervor. This thread was created to allow a civil discourse on a broad range of topics related to multihulls.

Hopefully this thread will provide a place for such topics as:
-Introduction and discussion of interesting new (or old) Multihull models
-Perceived 'whys and wherefores' of Multihull popularlity
-Multihull Technical issues
-Safety and seaworthiness
-Why you like or dislike multihulls
-experiences with Multihulls
-And other general Multihull related discussions.

While there are bound to be differences of opinions (and those are welcome within this thread and within SailNet in general), and bound to be some random amounts of thread drift, what will not be tolerated is personal attacks or dismissive comments.

Respectfully,
Jeff
 
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#272 ·
Here's some bashing upwind in 30+ knots and pretty lumpy seas on a run from Fiji to NZ on a FP Helia 44...



Another takeaway here is that, as they say, these are the worst conditions they've been in since leaving France. That's a long way around the world in pretty good conditions. So may Hal Roth was right.
 
#280 ·
I'm pretty sure they added that after. I'll look it up. Here was the system prior to the capsize from what I can tell...



MAINSAIL CONTROL SYSTEM: A light cat requires easy control of the mainsail. The helmsman trims the mainsheet with foot-pedal hydraulic pumps, and eases with the push of a button. The GUNBOAT G4 is the first high-performance cat to allow such short-handed control and safety…
The button didn't work.
 
#283 ·
You can see the helmsman (Mischa) in the cap with his feet on those sheeting pedals...



This is right before the crash. The "mainsheet" is fully hydraulic. They had a release valve on it that was too small and couldn't release fast enough. He says the new valve is 3X the size of the original. Lesson learned.

Here is the video of Mischa talking about what happened...

 

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#284 ·
Though it's about 4 years old now, I found an interesting CW article:

40 of the Best Catamarans and Trimarans. Ever.
Move over, monohulls. Check out Cruising World's list of the 40 multihulls that most significantly changed the boat-design game.
Look what's on the list!



And you just HAVE to love this one...


Piver Lodestar 35

And number 1 of all time at that point...


Leopard 48
 
#287 ·
I think you're being a bit too harsh in that last sentence. You have to remember that FUJIN was in full-on race mode, intentionally pushing the boat as hard as they could within their perceived limits. I think you could somewhat make a case for poor boat handling in their not being prepared - or being too slow - to blow the sheets as they came out of that wind shadow. But I think saying that it's an example of poor fundamental seamanship is going a bit far. This is racing. It's very different from "prudent" and conservative risk-reduction you typically associate with "good seamanship" on the cruising end of things.

As you saw in the photo I posted above, they push this boat very hard in races - to the point that at times get a hull flying. And they build their "seamanship" around that approach. And this is why you have things like the ISAF regs in racing where it is understood that you're not being conservative with the boat - so you have to be FAR more conservative with all the means of safety around you (gear, training, etc.). In that regard, this is far better fundamental seamanship than virtually any cruiser out there will have. Again - it's just a very different animal...and why these examples of capsize have literally nothing to do with cruising cats.
 
#288 ·
There’s some really new and inventive thinking in offerings coming up.
Friend in Barrington has just started a new company. Target is mom and pop or small family interested in voyaging and cruising not charter. Price point 800k-1m.
Designer Schoilling
Builder Steve Brody
Innovative features
Diesel electric propulsion. Diesel only invocated in absence of sufficient alt. energy. Charges through hydroelectric from sail drives as well as walk on solar.
Central helm inside saloon with all lines lead to that position. Can be sailed solo!! Panels above helm are glass and can be retracted.
Cutting edge design. Narrow 3’ at water line wave cutting hulls. Magnificent queen berth staterooms(one each hul), head, shower in each hull with additional one viable single passage berth in each hull. Daggerboards don’t interfere with interior. Skedges protect running gear and add directional stability. Horizon portion improves ride/performance.
CF/foam panel construction. Interesting to see how structural elements are nested on panels to avoid waste.
Anyone interested in a for real ocean going cruiser in the 45’ range should hold off a bit. There’s amazing boats coming down the pike.
 
#289 ·
There's some really new and inventive thinking in offerings coming up.
Friend in Barrington has just started a new company. Target is mom and pop or small family interested in voyaging and cruising not charter. Price point 800k-1m.
Designer Schoilling
Builder Steve Brody
Innovative features
Diesel electric propulsion. Diesel only invocated in absence of sufficient alt. energy. Charges through hydroelectric from sail drives as well as walk on solar.
Central helm inside saloon with all lines lead to that position. Can be sailed solo!! Panels above helm are glass and can be retracted.
Cutting edge design. Narrow 3' at water line wave cutting hulls. Magnificent queen berth staterooms(one each hul), head, shower in each hull with additional one viable single passage berth in each hull. Daggerboards don't interfere with interior. Skedges protect running gear and add directional stability. Horizon portion improves ride/performance.
CF/foam panel construction. Interesting to see how structural elements are nested on panels to avoid waste.
Anyone interested in a for real ocean going cruiser in the 45' range should hold off a bit. There's amazing boats coming down the pike.
This is out of the price range for most sailors.... maybe for middle aged people who liquidate their home and put it into a boat...
 
#296 ·
“...despite the outcome.”

Just excuses and defensiveness.

Jeopardizing safety of your crew by turtling your boat is the ultimate example of poor seamanship. Period.

I never said that he has poor overall seamanship skills. That’s a red herring that you threw into the mix.
 
#297 ·
"...despite the outcome."

Just excuses and defensiveness.

Jeopardizing safety of your crew by turtling your boat is the ultimate example of poor seamanship. Period.

I never said that he has poor overall seamanship skills. That's a red herring that you threw into the mix.
To win races it appears you have to show poor seamanship, so if your in a race are you there to win or show seamanship?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#300 · (Edited)
Now - if you want to see a TRULY SPECTACULAR capsize of a multi - here you go (watch the boom the whole time)...



https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/o...aran-capsize-in-Route-des-Princes-Dublin.html
"We were at the limit of weather conditions for our boats and it was not great for racing," said Yann Guichard. I was unable to do anything at the helm, the boat was turned over with a single blow. We let out the staysail immediately, but it was too late as it all happened in a split second.

"The boat was lifted onto the port float and went over. Jacques was with me in the cockpit and we found ourselves in the net ... we managed to get out and then were airlifted."

"All the MODs had one reef in the main and staysail. We started a bit below and behind the fleet and found ourselves slightly in a wind shadow. When our rivals had moved away we had a sudden gust literally flattened us.

...

"It was windy and gusty but it is very unusual to see a trimaran go over in a fully crewed situation," said Damian Foxall, who was just yards away on board Oman Air Musandam when the accident happened.

"We are all very aware of the risks. Without being too blasé it is part and parcel of the sport. It is dangerous because we are on the edge for a lot of the time but it doesn't change the fact that it is absolutely fantastic racing and this is a fantastic event and this is why we are here. As a rule, these boats deliver speed in a reliable way and it is up to the crew to manage the boat and keep it on three hulls."
So yes, this multi turtled and there was an injury (skipper's brother). Yet Yann Guichard doesn't suck at seamanship. And I still have zero concern about buying a cruising multi because this has absolutely nothing to do with that.
 
#303 ·
I'm asking this out of curiosity, don't pounce if it's a dumb question.
The catamarans that are being discussed are worth big dollars, they are loaded with fancy equipment. I would think that an adjustable auto-release mainsheet could be fitted. You set it for 2 tons pressure or whatever is realistic for the sail, wind, etc., and it would dump some air on it's own before capsize. Possible?
 
#304 ·
Hey pauli - I don't know who in this thread is going to "pounce" if you're just making comments, or asking questions, or presenting good info, etc. - but not taking personal shots or making wild claims. As you can see, it's been a pretty peaceful and fun thread. So I wouldn't worry about it. Have you seen how dumb my questions are?

Anyway, as to your question, that's exactly what I was asking Mark above. It's makes a lot of sense to me, at least theoretically - but I'm sure there are serious costs factors - and or the likelihood that you've a lot of "false positives" leading to some very frustrated owners as Mark mentioned. He's right I think.

Still, I would be interested if there are structural engineers and/or nautical architects around here (like BobP for example - maybe I'll give him a shout) that would have input.
 
#308 · (Edited)
Chef, to be very clear I didn't imply or tell TF (or anyone else) at any time that he couldn't or shouldn't post. That's certainly not my role. I just said I wasn't going to continue that particular conversation. And I won't.

If it begins to simply become arguing about ones technique of arguing - or running down semantic or logic rabbit holes - or accusations that a person is "defensive" or "sensitive" or "making excuses" or throwing "red herrings" or whatever - then it clearly becomes personal, not topical. I'm just saying I'm done playing those games. I really am. And I don't speak for anyone else.

I just want to learn about cruising multihulls and, at the same time, share with others what I'm learning - while having the experienced multihull sailors here guiding and refining that conversation. I think that's very productive for everyone reading this thread.

Now, trying to stay out of this kind of stuff, I wouldn't have responded to your post except you made this very valuable point...

I have found many of the comments from the true multihull owners who have posted here.
I have too. And I'm hoping more and more come in. Judging by the views, this thread is obviously a hit!
 
#309 ·
Just found another Young Punk couple who have gone multi. They have a Seawind 1160. I love her infectious happiness and descriptions of her feelings ("probably better than my wedding day"). What a great woman!



At about 3:40 the dude raises the middle panel of the salon entry with the winch - turning it into a freakin' hard bimini (with the window acting as a sight aloft)! Freakin' brilliant!

At about 6:54 you can see him working on the engine (and busting up the screws) - and the access he has.

Good video. I've subscribed.
 
#311 ·
Just found another Young Punk couple who have gone multi. They have a Seawind 1160. I love her infectious happiness and descriptions of her feelings ("probably better than my wedding day"). What a great woman!

S01E06 - First Sail on Our New Catamaran: Meet Hootie, Gorgeous Sunset, and Engine Problems - YouTube

At about 3:40 the dude raises the middle panel of the salon entry with the winch - turning it into a freakin' hard bimini (with the window acting as a sight aloft)! Freakin' brilliant!

At about 6:54 you can see him working on the engine (and busting up the screws) - and the access he has.

Good video. I've subscribed.
I've enjoyed their videos as well but I'm pretty sure they have stopped cruising and sold the boat. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#310 ·
I know Damian, as well as several of these extreme multihull racers. A number of them also own cruising boats. I can guarantee that they have more seamanship and experience with sailing boats than anyone on this forum.

They are professional racers. It is their job to take their machines to the very edge and hold them there. It has nothing at all to do with seamanship, although the ability to perform this feat is about the height of good seamanship in pretty much every way. It is like saying Michael Shumacher is a poor driver because he sometimes loses control on the F1 circuit.

This is no different mono or catamaran or trimaran - the job of these guys is to take those boats to the extreme and keep them there. Yes, they may have a risk tolerance, or even a risk addiction or obsession, that may look like "poor seamanship" - particularly the crazy French - but that is confined to the race course and the extreme boats.

And again, seamanship is the only thing that keeps those boats in races. I've sailed with some on passages on their cruising boats and those are reefed at night or in proper conditions, never over-driven, good watch keeping with proper navigation, a full understanding of the rules, and a desire to stay out of the way of other boats regardless of the rules. Their seamanship is outstanding.

I've also sailed on a Mod70. This is a special-purpose machine that is extreme in all ways. It is ready to go over when tied to a dock. The amount of seamanship it requires to just get it out of a harbor probably exceeds that of most here. Under way, that thing takes an entire professional crew working tightly together with high coordination just to keep it on its feet. Those boats easily do twice wind speed and reach 40-50kts, and the foils lift it in the smallest breeze. Bearing away through the death zone on that boat is a white-knuckle, butt-clenching experience. Even for them. There is no way I could ever control that boat - I don't have enough seamanship for it.

Mark
 
#314 ·
IMHO a lot of folks get all hung up on keels falling off, capsizing, running in the southern ocean with series drogues, etc., etc., etc. People talk about these things the same way my friend with the Porsche talks about how fast it will go. Mostly, he just polishes the thing in his driveway.

And that includes me. I don't want to. My idea of an offshore trip is a couple of days out of site of land with a great weather window. Beyond that, the discomfort/fun ratio doesn't work for me. I love daysailing from place to place, anchoring about 4PM for cocktail hours and hanging the grill (hang the grill first, don't ask me how I know).

So my issue with cruising cats is I don't like the feel of the way they sail, and a couple of weeks them did was not sufficient for me to acquire the taste. We've been all through that, and I get that a lot of people feel different and that's great.

But all this talk about capsizing, keels falling off, etc, doesn't matter for most people.

Meanwhile, I'll be in the driveway, wax on, wax off.
 
#316 · (Edited)
I love daysailing from place to place, anchoring about 4PM for cocktail hours and hanging the grill (hang the grill first, don't ask me how I know).
I believe that's a pretty universally held belief. You either hang the grill before you drink and cook. Or you dive for the grill after you tried to hang it after 4 Dark and Stormies AND you miss dinner.
 
#315 ·
I think it’s hard to judge seamanship as a term across different disciplines/ types of boats. These “ great seamanship skills “ exhibited by the muntihull racers mentioned here are without challenge by anyone, however those same captains put on a tanker would not have the requisite superior seamanship skills. posdible that the statement that they have more than people posting on here is not really Accurate either. It takes time to learn certain skills. I am sure if I decided to make the switch to a multi hull boat , I would need to learn some new skills . Coming from a multi hull beach cat to a keel boat required that. Hell I often watch mono hulls gybe uncintrollably putting increased loads on the mast an equipment and shake my head.

I remember my hobie lessons , and a gybe must be choreographed or you are swallowing seawater . It taught me the correct way to gybe so when I got to the big monohull I used a good technique.

The two times I chartered the multihull were fun moments. I had enough seamanship skills to keep us safe. I never feared about flipping it even though winds were I no excess of 30 many times. I doubt an experienced monohull boat owner would actually fear flipping a multihull. I would in fact see appropriate caution as they learned the difference in handing of the two types of boats and adjusted. In fact I am sure many would take a conservative approach. I don’t believe current monohull sailors really fear operating multihull. I don’t believe they fear going fast at all. Nor do they fear their keels falling off. I bet the biggest “ fear” in fact is a rigging failure. It does take getting used to steering a multihull.

Most sailors are not racers, in fact I think only a very small minority are in fact. I appreciate the racers , in fact I did that myself for many years in Annapolis, as it is they who really test limits as well as hone sail trimming skills . MOst cruisers handing multi hulls , just like monohulls like to sail comfortably and safely

It as very comfortable living conditions at anchor. I could see where people would like them.

There are however some criteria which are present in all types of boats. Safety being one. Racers as as a category test the edges of the windows sometimes as part of their craft. This inevitably may lead to more incidents .

I am no longer a true racer. The thing which steers me to a monohull is it’s displacement type hull.
I have no quip about heading our in 30+ winds as I know I won’t be skipping across the type of waves. That wad of lead 5 ft under the boat insures that . I have seen friends retire from a monohull to a trawler and regretted it because of the lack of keelband the Rolling nature of the boat. If/ when that day ever comes I have to motor to get on the water, I will power along in a sailboat.

Since I mentioned the rigging failure before, one of the reason I like our C&C and other similar boats is the mast is keel stepped. Personally I would not by a deck stepped boat . I have seen what happens when the mast itself fails. I have seen them almost impale the captain/ crew with the bottom of the mast we the sh.t hit the fan.

I will continue to charter a cat one of our two charters a year, which we do with other couples. When we go by ourselves I like the monohull.

Because their seems to be an increase in the number of charter cats maybe SN should give them a topic heading all of their own.
 
#320 ·
I think it's hard to judge seamanship as a term across different disciplines/ types of boats. These " great seamanship skills " exhibited by the muntihull racers mentioned here are without challenge by anyone, however those same captains put on a tanker would not have the requisite superior seamanship skills. posdible that the statement that they have more than people posting on here is not really Accurate either.
For accuracy, here is my exact quote (bold emphasis added here):
I can guarantee that they have more seamanship and experience with sailing boats than anyone on this forum.
I never made any statement about tankers or other ships besides sailing boats.

Mark
 
#318 · (Edited)
Mast - there was a post above by smj from a woman who had worked at the NTSB and ran some numbers. That post is here...

A couple of tidbits to your question...

The rates of actual vessel loss (outside of competition) remained the same for monohulls and multihulls, over many years, with catamarans emerging slightly ahead of other vessels in the last years of available data. Reports of large numbers of catamaran roll-overs are probably anecdotal as accident statistics reveal a (slight) decline, with a slight increase in sinkings among monohulls.
And here was her conclusion...

My conclusions were impaired by the quality of data, and my proposal of a National Transportation Safety Board Special Study was properly overshadowed by more important issues. But there is enough factual data to prove that cruising multihulls are no more, and possible less dangerous than cruising monohulls in all reported conditions of weather, traffic, and human frailty, regardless of location.
This is probably as close to empirical as you're going to get.
 
#319 ·
Mast - there was a post above by smj from a woman who had worked at the NTSB and ran some numbers. That post is here...

A couple of tidbits to your question...

And here was her conclusion...

This is probably as close to empirical as you're going to get.
I had read that page but thanks for including the link, it was convenient to review it again.

Two comments, one general one more specific. The general comment is that Sandra Daugherty, the person who wrote this, emphasized that her 'conclusions were impaired by the quality of data.' So this is not a strong basis to base any conclusions on.

The more specific point: nothing in that posting says anything anywhere about the rate of keels falling off on monohulls. So this clearly does not support the statement "Keels fall off cruising monohulls at the same rate as cruising catamarans flip"

So my question remains, what factual data is this statement based on?
 
#328 ·
My only windward multi ocean experience is a trip over to the Andamans . A slam ,slam shudder trip most of the way. Faster but less comfortable than my old gaffer. Apparently they go fast and can go to windward too (according to you tube) . Based on this I'm sure I could drive 'er balls to the wall with the best of them and not stand by with a machete at the main sheet. Which is considered by some classic mono hull sailors as prudent seamanship until the sail get to a manageable level as conditions change faster than you can hack. Comparing your adventure to a beach hobie or ultimate racing with a big crowd of rescuers standing by gives confidence to newbi multihullers cruisers who have never seen the action that can overwhelm and overturn . Alls fine until it isn't. Seeing cats drift ashore shows how that works.Should be an offshore multi hull winter race from Victoria to San Diego if you need a test.I have several friends who spent considerable weeks on upside down tris .Two in the North Pacific and one in the Tasman I consider them prudent and careful cruisers who still were overcome by Neptune .If it come down to experience gained on you tube and "here, hold my beer" be sure to record it.
 
#329 ·
So there are centerboarders with internal ballast, boats going back decades with encapsulated keels, and lifting keels. Only monos where keel falling off may be an issue are those with bolt on keels and even here it’s rare.
Similarly flipping a multi is bad form. Used to be said a mono takes care of you ... you take care of a multi. Skip alluded to this. That a moment of inattention and you’re turtle. But with all due regards think with the evolution in heavy weather tactics for multis this is quite rare.

So neither keels falling off nor inversion isn’t how most catastrophes occur for either monos or multis. There are so many other ways for the boat to fail or the souls aboard to get hurt or die. The discussion of these two risks is no longer informative.

How about moving on and talking about interesting innovations in multihull design or even what features contribute to a good multi seaboat.
 
#330 ·
So neither keels falling off nor inversion isn't how most catastrophes occur for either monos or multis. There are so many other ways for the boat to fail or the souls aboard to get hurt or die. The discussion of these two risks is no longer informative.

How about moving on and talking about interesting innovations in multihull design or even what features contribute to a good multi seaboat.
I couldn't agree more.

The reason I continue to look for videos is I want to see the different features on the different boats. And I want to see how various models do in ocean crossings in rough seas, light air, etc. Thus far I've been very, very impressed at the much more comfortable all-round state of the multi in even very harsh conditions. It's amazing - creating its own safety factor in relation to keep the crew rested and ready.

Finding informative videos and stories like this is my current mission. Stay tuned.
 
#331 ·
Getting rest on any boat is part of proper seamanship skills..Can't see these claims as being valid as to the better rest on a catamaran argument. Maybe the cats attract a lower level of experience and the need for more rest?
 
#336 ·
On the sleeping and comfort thing, I'm just going by the first hand accounts of those who are doing long passages in the videos I've been researching and posting - with a few of them specifically comparing their times on monos to these multis. I'm then also watching the motion of these cats in rough seas - and seeing what's going on inside the boat visually as compared to what I know goes on inside a mono in similar conditions. This certainly bolsters their accounts.

So, that's absolutely factual enough for me. You really don't have to guess or do it yourself before you draw a conclusion if you're willing to listen to those what are actually doing it.
 
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