Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs - Page 6 - SailNet Community
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post #51 of 577 Old 02-23-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Accepting marketing material at face value without questioning it, could very well result in being upside down in a 53 foot catamaran.
Or on the seafloor in a 82' monohull. Or a 45' mono. Or a ....

On the other hand, this boat was being pushed to its extremes by a professional racing crew in a professional race event with sporting conditions. It was a new design with no previous sailing experience and the crew did not know its limits.

In the same situation, it is possible an under-rigged, heavy, fat cruising catamaran could be flipped.

So this may very well represent a safe performance cruising catamaran like any others of its ilk. It is not my cup of tea, and its reputation may be ruined now, but it still could fit the marketing bill.

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post #52 of 577 Old 02-23-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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But the nicest part for me is the potential to do 20+ knots (even if the reality is that your average cruising speed won't be much higher than a mono).
The reality for even performance cruising catamarans of modest size is that any 20+kt achievements will be few and far between, and likely only because it is being pushed beyond safety. All of the youtube postings are more about singular instantaneous speeds surfing down waves than average speeds, or even regular occurrences.

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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
The reality for even performance cruising catamarans of modest size is that any 20+kt achievements will be few and far between, and likely only because it is being pushed beyond safety. All of the youtube postings are more about singular instantaneous speeds surfing down waves than average speeds, or even regular occurrences.

Mark
This holds for virtually all the videos I've seen. For speeds like this they are either in storms and/or way over-canvassed. I'd posted a video in my original thread of a 50+ footer hitting mid-to-high 20s and they were stuffing their bows. I'll try to find that one again. It's scary.
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

While doing 20+ knots is on the extreme end I still think regularly going 10+ knots in my 32' live aboard cruiser leaving much larger monohulls in my wake would put a big grin on my face.

Sailing Catamarans - Eclipse - 9.9m performance cruiser

Are there any production cats similar to this Richard Woods design?
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post #55 of 577 Old 02-23-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Or on the seafloor in a 82' monohull. Or a 45' mono. Or a ....
I know we have been over this before, but you know that I neither own, nor particularly care for keel boats right? I wasn't making any comparisons to mono hull keel boats.

The article as much as anything demonstrates differences in multi hulls. One can't lump "catamarans" all in one basket. A lumbering charter cat may have as little in common with a high performance cruising cat as a full keeled double ended mono has with a light fin keeled high aspect broad sterned racing mono.

I know you probably are aware of this, but I am not sure every one makes that distinction.
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post #56 of 577 Old 02-23-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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While doing 20+ knots is on the extreme end I still think regularly going 10+ knots in my 32' live aboard cruiser leaving much larger monohulls in my wake would put a big grin on my face.

Sailing Catamarans - Eclipse - 9.9m performance cruiser

Are there any production cats similar to this Richard Woods design?
Tomcats maybe?

https://www.sailmagazine.com/boats/tomcat-970s
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post #57 of 577 Old 02-23-2018
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

I wanted to circle back around to this apparent fear of capsize. I've already posted above the video of the capsize of the G4. There's no question that boat capsized and it didn't come back up on its own.

Arc just posted another example of this catamaran that also capsized and didn't come back up...





But so that you understand some context about both of these boats, it is made very clear in the G4 video that the professional skipper and crew were intentionally pushing that boat on foils to see what it would do. It is also clear (visually and confirmed by the skipper) that the reason the boat went over is that they had a problem releasing the mainsheet. If you have any time at all on a beachcat you understand how this can be a real issue.

As for the FUJIN, the Bieker 53, she was also racing in the RORC Caribbean 600. And to give you some context of how hard this crew pushes this boat, here you go...



So, it's pretty clear to anyone with an open mind that neither of these boats/use-cases have anything whatsoever in common with cruising. So to use them as examples of what can happen to a cruising mutli is a bit like using DRUM or CHEEKI RAFIKI or even VIRBAC PAPREC 3 to say that you should fear cruising monos. There's just no logical correlation if you're at all serious about the subject.

On the other hand you have LEOPARD in the video posted elsewhere...


Again, definitely a cruising cat (Chris White Design)...and definitely upside down. Now, I think this was posted earlier, but here is a superb write-up by Charlie Doane on the incident...

https://www.sailfeed.com/2016/11/atl...te-of-leopard/

A critical part of that article is this...

Quote:
Chris White has already received a preliminary meteorological assessment from Jennifer Francis, a research professor at Rutgers University (also a friend and an Atlantic catamaran owner), who reviewed the atmospheric records for the relevant time and place and concluded conditions in the area were in fact conducive to the formation of a tornadic vortex.



Graphic prepared by Jennifer Francis. Her conclusion, transmitted to Chris White: “It all seems to add up to a twisting phenomenon, not a microburst.”

Discussing the event with Charles Nethersole, it really did sound to me like the purest piece of bad luck a bluewater sailor could ever hope to encounter, as though God himself, with no warning, had suddenly decided to poke you with a finger and squash you like a bug.
So to call this event a "squall" is pretty far off the mark. You can read through the rest of the thread and draw your own conclusion.

BUT - there is another issue here that IS of some concern...a second Chris White Design ANNA also capsized in what was reported as a "squall" several years earlier...

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/wh...by-chris-white

Quote:
The report from Anna was the squall did not look any different than the others. But the last wind reading they noticed was 62 knots. That's a lot of wind. And they had the same sail up as Javelin did in the squall I just mentioned, a single reefed main and the full self tacking jib. Keep in mind that power in the wind increases as the square of the velocity. Doubling the velocity from 20 to 40 kts increases the pressure on the sails by FOUR times. Tripling the wind velocity from 20 to 60 kts increases the wind pressure by NINE times.

Reefing not only reduces the sail area but removes sail area from up high where the wind pressure exerts the most leverage trying to turn the boat over. The typical catamaran mainsail is large with a very rounded roach that increases the sail area near the top of the sail where it exerts the most heeling force. The combination of both reducing the sail area and reducing its height by reefing has a dramatic effect on stability, allowing the boat to stand up to much stronger gusts.
So LEOPARD in the video above is the second CWD that has capsized in high winds. Why? The ANNA story seems to clearly be on the sailors having too much sail up. And Chris White himself agrees with the tornadic weather conclusion above regarding LEOPARD...

Quote:
It is still early in our evaluation of what happened but my own opinion is that Leopard was overtaken by a tornadic waterspout.
But two CWDs going over? Is there something in the design/build of these boats that make them more prone to capsize?

Regardless, I'm not at all worried about it. I know it can happen. I also know keels do fall off. That's why you take care of the boat and sail her to conditions...regardless of what boat you're on. It's really no frightening mystery.

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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

I am glad to have discovered another North American mutli brand with Beiker (thanks for that Arc)...

Bieker Boats


Seeing those market numbers made me wonder who and where the hell these builders are.

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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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Man, this thread is going to go everywhere. Seems like it should be a forum topic, and the listed items examples of possible threads within that forum.

Mark
That would be cool. The market is definitely speaking. And it would help give SN a unique flavor in relation to other sailing forums - one that it really needs right now.
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Re: Multihull Popularity and Interesting Designs

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..... it wasn't an attempt to bury your specific post, as anyone reasonable could see.
I didn’t think they were intended to bury my post, rather it was a consequence of all the cutting and pasting. I also don’t think anyone reasonable would have thought I was suggesting otherwise. It still seems unnecessary to have done so, after we’ve seen them all already. This is a forum discussion, not an encyclopedia.

Quote:
To answer your question, yes, there are centerline berths in catamarans <50'. Many of the production cats have these, as a simple google search can provide. However, to get this, the hulls have to be pretty beamy - which is not a good thing for catamaran performance.

Large centerline berths make excellent sea berths on catamarans because there is no healing and little rolling. We sleep very well in our standard queen sized berths during passages, although they are not centerline. Being centerline wouldn't change anything in this regard.
My thanks to the poster below for actually giving an example. Seems less room to the side of a queen berth in a multi is to be expected. Heads and showers are usually roomier, it seems.


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