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-   -   Will the real PHRF please stand up (https://www.sailnet.com/forums/boat-review-purchase-forum/329098-will-real-phrf-please-stand-up.html)

davidpm 04-07-2019 01:31 PM

Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
For this boat what do you suspect is the real phrf.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/c-c-34--3518900/


Wikipedia says 144

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%26C_34/36

PHRF NE says: 102

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

That is a huge difference, they can't both be right.

sailingfool 04-07-2019 01:49 PM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
I think the explanation is that the Wikipedia listing has the rating of the older, original C&C 34 there rather than that of the 34+...

PaulinVictoria 04-07-2019 01:56 PM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
Given the standard keel 34+ typically rates around 85-90, I would be very surprised if the WK was 50-60s a mile slower. The 102 is probably about right.

SchockT 04-07-2019 11:15 PM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
Different regions often have slightly different ratings. PHRF-BC lists the base rating for the 34+ as 87.

The 144 number is definitely the outlier.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

JimsCAL 04-08-2019 08:15 AM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
I agree with sailingfool. The 144 rating is for the older 34.

Minnewaska 04-08-2019 08:16 AM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by davidpm (Post 2051594308)
For this boat what do you suspect is the real phrf..

The problem, of course, is that no PHRF is actually real. ie upwind vs downwind, vs loaded up, etc, etc, etc.

Jeff_H 04-08-2019 10:08 AM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by davidpm (Post 2051594308)

The Wiki quote does not appear to come from a PHRF Base rating sheet for the 34/36 WK (which this boat appears to be). It appears to come from someone's website and as others have said, the 144 rating is for the original C&C 34 and not this boat.

102 sounds like a more appropriate base rating for this boat. It should be noted that in general these boats but especially the wing keel versions do not sail well to their ratings. PHRF ratings are based on a specific set of courses sailing in the prevailing breeze for that region. Because many reqions can have a wide ranges of wind conditions throughout the racing season, PHRF awards boats that are good in a broad range of conditions and these boats did not offer a broad enough range of capabilities to be competitive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051594450)
The problem, of course, is that no PHRF is actually real. ie upwind vs downwind, vs loaded up, etc, etc, etc.

While the actual ability to sail to a rating may vary with the items that you mentioned, PHRF ratings are supposed to be based on a boat loaded in a specific manner, fully and properly prepped, and sailing a specific course stipulated course in the prevailing conditions. In that regard, there is a real and valid PHRF for that a properly prepared and loaded boat.

What no current scoring rule can do is to adjust the rating for each individual boat in the specific sailing conditions it is racing in on each leg; although SYRF (Sailing Yacht Research Foundation) is trying to come up with a way to do that.

Jeff

pdqaltair 04-08-2019 11:57 AM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
The only racing I ever enjoyed was either one design or going for line honors on a fast multi. Otherwise, if I won it could just be a rating fluke, and if I lost, same thing. I was even in one series where you had to swap boats, based on a lottery. No cheating the rule or arms race, only sailing.

Minnewaska 04-08-2019 02:45 PM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_H (Post 2051594474)
...While the actual ability to sail to a rating may vary with the items that you mentioned, PHRF ratings are supposed to be based on a boat loaded in a specific manner, fully and properly prepped, and sailing a specific course stipulated course in the prevailing conditions. In that regard, there is a real and valid PHRF for that a properly prepared and loaded boat.

What no current scoring rule can do is to adjust the rating for each individual boat in the specific sailing conditions it is racing in on each leg; although SYRF (Sailing Yacht Research Foundation) is trying to come up with a way to do that...

As I know you agree, no one is likely to ever replicate the PHRF rating in real life. At best, one might consider them relative measures between boats, which is also suspect, when the difference is in a few seconds over a mile, IMO. As you also know, a boat with a faster PHRF might very well be slower on any given leg than it's closely rated neighbor.

If one was interested in racing the PHRF game, I get why it matters. As to buying a cruising boat, unless one has no clue that an old bullet proof full keeler is going to drag behind a modern light fin keel, I think they're worthless measures.

JimsCAL 04-08-2019 04:39 PM

Re: Will the real PHRF please stand up
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Minnewaska (Post 2051594596)
As to buying a cruising boat, unless one has no clue that an old bullet proof full keeler is going to drag behind a modern light fin keel, I think they're worthless measures.

I couldn't disagree more. The PHRF rating gives you a quick measure of the relative sailing performance of a boat. I absolutely looked at the PHRF ratings of the boats I was considering when I bought my current boat, even though I did not plan on racing her. It is especially useful as you compare boats of about the same size.


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