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post #31 of 39 Old 05-31-2019
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

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Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Here is the thing, with boats there are no silver bullets or always true statements. Like most things about boats every decision is a compromise.
Not all Beneteaus have iron keels
Not all Beneteaus with iron keels have easily replaceable keel bolts.
Iron keels typically come with some mix of less stability, poorer motion comfort and/or poorer sailing performance.
Not all lead keels have J-Bolts
Not all boats with lead Keels and J-bolts have keel bolts that are hard to replace. (You drill new holes and nut pockets just the way lead keels were built before J-bolts were invented, and if you go back with Monel nuts and bolts you will never have to replace them again)
Boats with iron keels that may have steel keel bolts that may be easier and cheaper to replace, typically need their keel
bolts replaced on a more frequent basis (10-to 15 years) vs lead keels with stainless steel bolts(25 to 40 years)
Boats with lead keels and monel keel bolts, pretty much never need their keel bolts replaced.
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Originally Posted by newfie way View Post
Head spinning, can't think, where did I leave my beer? Was it monel keel with lead bolts or was it lead keel with candy canes? Has anybody seen the door? That light at the end of the tunnel is starting to look like an encapsulated lead keel again. There I was shopping for a Beneteau and now I am back to a Cal34. The one thing I really want to avoid is manufactured obsolescence. Repair-ability is as important to me as functionality. Forget the keel, I'm gonna buy a Corsair Marine F27 trimaran!
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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
I'm sorry, but it's nutzo to block out the world's largest producer of boats because you have heard some story from - not even a friend but - an acquaintance.

An oyster sank when it's keel fell off. Wipe all Oysters off the list?
Catalinas have sunk. Wipe them out?
Hunters sink. Chop them off?
Cape Dories have caught fire... Scrap them?

What vehicle do you drive? Power steering can fail so do you only drive a vehicle without power steering?

Your fears do not stack up against any risk analysis. Look for a boat you and your family will like to be aboard and have family fun time.

BTW I can not see family fun time including a narrow boat parked in the back yard.

Sorry to be critical.

Mark
I certainly did not mean to suggest that you should rule out Beneteaus, or boats with bolt on keels. My main points were mostly that almost every decision that can be made in designing a boat involves trade offs, each with advantages and liabilities.

And that in choosing between one design element and another, there is a tendency to try to generalize and make a decision based on that generality. While that might seem to simplify the selection process, it does not necessarily achieve the desired goal. And just when you decide that you won't generalize, it turns out that some generalities are almost always true, (for example long overhangs do nothing good for a boat but do tend to result in a lot of negatives.

And that when you get into fairly specific details of boat building, you need to look at the specifics of how that detail was done on that specific boat and the condition it is in on that specific boat.

And that the court of public opinion is often based on outdated ideas or ideas that are loosely typically true, but which may not apply in the case of the specific boat in question. (For example, people often suggest that a boat buyer rely on the Capsize Screen Formula or the Motion Comfort Index. These surrogate formulas were developed before the last 40 years of scientific research and are so over-simplified that neither formula contains any of the major factors which actually control the likelihood of a capsize or how comfortable a boat's motion actually is)

I was also reacting to your list of boats, and the extreme range of sailing ability, seaworthiness, motion comfort, build quality, accommodations, ease of handling, etc. characteristics exhibited by a list that includes a Cal34, Pearson 35 and Vanguard, Alberg 35, Ericson 35, and a Ranger 33. If these were aircraft you would be looking at everything from a Wright Bi-plane to a P-51 Mustang.

Anyway that was all I was trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingUphill View Post
Seaward 32 RK.. and you can launch it and retrieve it yourself, can use a motorboat trailer, and step the mast yourself.

What did I win?
Oh so close...You just missed one part of the question, "I have a $35,000 budget" Monty, Please tell him what he would have won.......

Jeff
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

Jeff_H, I agree with everything you've said so far. Personally, I don't like long overhangs. They just seem so inefficient based on gaming CCA rules. Talk about playing to your weakness instead of your strengths. And yes, my boat choices are all over the spectrum from a biplane to a mustang. Different horses for different courses. A P51 makes a lousy crop duster, a biplane makes a lousy bomber support aircraft..etc. Unfortunately with the trailer limitations, my basic requirements are based on beam, weight, length, and $$. Not necessarily performance oriented. Keel choices are a secondary issue, but I would like to get a modern designed boat. Alas, there is that $ issue that narrows the available boats so I will have to compromise on everything. Replaceable keel bolts would be nice though. I could just ditch the trailer also.
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

Encapsulated keel without any bolts at all even better no?
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post #34 of 39 Old 06-01-2019
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

I have to wonder if it is wise to limit your options to what will fit on your trailer, and doesn't need a wide load permit. You should think seriously about how often you are going to haul out a 35ft keelboat and park it in your driveway. I suspect that the reality might be that most of the work you want to do to your boat can be done in the water. It is a LOT of hassle to haul a boat that size out of the water, take the mast down, prep it for transport. Transport it, and then reverse the whole process.

Are you SURE that bringing your keelboat home to work on it should be given so much importance?

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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

I would not use the trailer very often, but having the option to move a boat is valuable. Having options is always beneficial, even if they are rarely employed. I wonder how many boats that are currently derelict in marinas or boatyards would be moved if their owners could move them? I would guess that some big boats are simply trapped by their own dimensions. Owners that are at a loss feeding a white elephant.
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

Jeff you are no fun anymore :P
I just like an opportunity to send a whole bunch of sailors looking at the Seaward 32RK.

its one of those, you can have trailerable, cheap, fast, bluewater... pick any 2.

Freedom, a 1983 C&C 32 sailing Smith Mountain Lake, VA
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post #37 of 39 Old 06-01-2019
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

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Encapsulated keel without any bolts at all even better no?
No.... while bolt on keels require maintenance over their life span, they can be maintained pretty much forever. The problem with the way that most encapsulated keels are constructed, they count heavily on the bond between the ballast keel and the encapsulation envelope. Over time that bond breaks down and when it does the forces increase where the the hull turns down into the sump of the keel.

In a bolt on keel, by necessity, those forces are resisted by transverse framing that are an integral part of the structural engineering of the boat. But very few boats with encapsulated ballast have any internal framing in the keel area.

The net result is that without internal framing and without the bond between the ballast and the encapsulation envelope, the turn down at the keel flexes more and so fatigues more, and therefore more rapidly loses strength to resist a grounding.

Because of the way that the ballast is bonded to the envelope, once that bond is broken, there is no good way to reliably reestablish a proper bond.

This problem is exacerbated by the way that encapsulated keels were typically constructed. Typically the ballast was inserted into the encapsulation and then a slurry (polyester resins with a thickener) was poured into the cavity over the ballast with the hope that gravity would allow the slurry to the bottom of the envelope and fill any voids. That almost never worked in an ideal manner.

The slurry itself was lose-lose situation. If the slurry was thickened too much it would not flow, and if not thickened enough the unreinforced resin was brittle and had very little strength. Making matters worse the bond was by necessity a secondary bond.

Further complicating things, on most encapsulated keels the membrane between the top of the ballast and the sump was not structural, consisting merely as a couple layers of cloth solely intended to prevent water seeping into the voids between the ballast and the encapsulation.

Lastly, it is important to understand that encapsulated keels were done as a cost savings method, rather than as a better way to build a boat. Then they were marketed heavily in manners that didn't focus on the life cycle of the boat, and that marketing has informed the court of commonly held opinions. But as these encapsulated keel boats age, they reach a point where their strength is somewhat suspect and are showing up increasingly being totalled in what should have been a minor grounding.

Jeff
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

Well that's a significant chunk of learning for me there, thanks so much for going to the trouble of composing such a thorough post
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Re: Looking to purchase- advice

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Well that's a significant chunk of learning for me there, thanks so much for going to the trouble of composing such a thorough post
You are very welcome. I try to explain why I post things and sometimes it takes a lot of words to do so. On the other hand no one ever accused me if being terse.

Jeff
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