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Spend my money

16K views 84 replies 18 participants last post by  ThereYouAre 
#1 · (Edited)
Well after three years of scrimping and saving the plan has come together and it's time to look for a liveaboard to purchase.

The end goal is to purchase a blue water boat to do a circumnavigation but the current thinking is to purchase something smaller and cheaper than my 'ideal' boat and spend a couple years cruising between the Chesapeake and Bahamas until I figure out just how much I don't know.

Besides lounging around, playing my ukulele, and getting lost at sea. I'm also interested in racing. Not so much racing around the marks as I don't need some adrenaline junkie who's half in the bag t-boning my home.

While hope springs eternal and past performance is no guarantee of future results, I fully expect to be single handing.

My sailing experience is almost entirely dinghy sailing. My big boat experience is completing the USSailing's basic keelboat course and going out with Jeff_H a couple times on his 38 footer.

My budget is ~100k but since I'm starting smallish I'm looking for something under $50k about 35' long. Ideally I would like something I could sell in two or three years without losing my shirt.

Must haves
1. A touch of class (whatever that means)
2. A turn of speed (I'm using a PHRF of 150 for a 35' to make this determination)
3. Ability to carry my 5.5'/11' nesting dinghy (I'd rather carry it assembled if possible)
4. Less than 6' draft

Should haves in order of importance
1. Comfortable saloon
2. Dry head (aka separate shower, this is the one luxury I really don't want to give up)
3. Swim platform / sugar scoop for easy access. (I've seen a few boats with aftermarket folding swim platforms on the transom so I'm flexible on this if a swim platform could be retrofitted.
4. 2nd stateroom

Unicorn attributes ( I don't believe in Unicorns)
1. Beachable
2. Tabernacle mast

Ideally I'll purchase something on the Chesapeake but am willing to look all over the east coast and great lakes.

If you know what boats might fit this criteria I would love your input. If I was going to to try and get my forevever boat right away I would be looking for an Ericson 38-200, Tartan 372 or similar.

thanks,
Hugh
 
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#3 ·
Yes, I don't expect any boat to have the Unicorn features. The Clearwater 35 is the closest thing I've seen to a perfect boat but I think the saloon is too compromised by the keel trunk to be a good live aboard.

If you can mention some of the boats that have the rest of the features I would be grateful.
 
#20 ·
I would agree that the Clearwater 35 has an unorthodox saloon, but that is part of a compromise for the extreme shallow draft ( ~ 2 ft) that is available when you need it. Shortcuts are available, and anchorages are bigger when you can retract your "landing gear". With the keel down (~6 ft) the Clearwater 35 will go to weather with the best.

The relatively roomy forward cabin somewhat makes up for the compromises in the main cabin. The upside of an intrusive keel trunk is that you have a ready bulkhead to brace yourself in rougher conditions. The linear galley to port and the head compartment to starboard are part of the design to accommodate the intrusive trunk, as seen in the thumbnails. That pushes the port and starboard settees aft by the companionway.

All that said, it would be best to see the layout in person if you think it might work for you. Understandably it won't for a lot of folks.
 

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#6 ·
35 or 38 C&C. No swim platform or seperate shower on 35 BUT great PHRF . My 35 is 127. Great pointing ability. Used to race her. Great accommodations with large V and headroom. Well made.

Hard to find used ones.

I’m located around the corner from JeffH on Whitehall Creek
 
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#9 ·
I completely agree with this ^^^^. When one buys any used boat, they start dumping money into it quickly. Best you not have to start over so quickly. Going from competent dinghy sailing to a 30 something foot boat is no big deal, especially after a little training.

p.s. The OP will lose their shirt on any boat they buy. No way to avoid. Even those that resell in the vicinity of what they pay, which is rare enough, they rarely consider all the maintenance, upgrades, etc. Then again, I'd rather use my shirt than have it just sit on the shelf.
 
#21 ·
If you were buying me a Bluewater boat for under 100K, I would tell you that I could forego the sugar scoop and the dry head.

I would then tell you that I want a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34 or 37! :grin

Jim
I agree with Jim. Since the OP indicates that he may be a single hander, I would be tempted to look at something like this:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1989/pacific-seacraft-31-3528807/

We sail a 31 as well and frankly preferred the layout to the 34 or 37, which we also looked at. In particular we loved the head back by the companionway (you aren't sleeping over your holding tank or traipsing wet items through the salon) and the open layout below. Everything becomes more manageable for a single hander if you can keep the size down as will the expenses. This example has been on the market for a while and looks to have tired sails, no lines led to cockpit, which can be accomplished, but recentish dodger, bimini etc., full winter cover and AC. Close by so maybe worth a look? The bones should be good and unless some unknown issue, the Yanmar is bullet proof. This boat is built to cross oceans but is nimble enough to perform well on the Bay. You can clearly buy more boat for less, but since you mentioned passage making this is what such boats are made for, sea kindly and seaworthy. That price should leave you with funds for the inevitable refits and work. You should plan to spend 20% of the cost within a year or two on replacing and fixing "stuff" on any boat. Plus if you don't find yourself turning around to look at her as you leave her you are just gunna end up having an affair and getting another boat. Try to get both looks and personality! Oh and avoid the temptation to buy stuff till you have owned her for awhile, and also try to avoid the temptation to keep going up in size. As Larry Pardey said, "go simple, go small, go now."

OBTW, the 31's (as the 34 & 37's) are still made and that is a huge asset. It means parts, support and keeps price up. Went to go visit Pacific Seacraft this past May and looked at a new 31 about to be splashed...just north of $415k! Yikes! They cost about $65-75k when new in 1989.

Good luck. You are welcome to PM me if wished. As a dinghy sailor you will find such a boat easier to sail than your dinghy! If set up right she will hold course with no hand on the wheel or auto pilot.
 
#10 ·
I want to comment (yet again) on the separate.... or as the OP states "dry shower".

My Contest 36s has the head forward and it separates the V berth from the salon. The walls are high gloss varnish teak. The finish is in perfect condition 35 years on including living aboard for 5 or 6 years.
The head liner is gelcoat. There is some gel coated hull liner behind the head itself and a gel coated shower pan under the teak grate for the sole. The head contains 4 lockers... 2 tall on port and 2 short on stbd. Port are used for hanging and one for shelves for towels linen and assorted storage. Stbd are used as medicine and storage cabinets. The top stbd lockers is a deep shelf and at the hull is a raised teak board behind which all manner of bottles and tubes of liquids. The actual head is to stbd and the sink is a teak "box" with a ss sink in formica top with teak fiddles. All teak is varnish in high gloss. A large mirror is on above the sink. towels hang from hooks on the forward bulkhead. TP is on the inside of the locker door of the stbd cab. The sink fitting is a hand shower which includes a shut off valve at the handle. There is a large CL hatch which when open forward and pulls air from the bow. There is a hand hold on the forward bulkhead head side.

Our bead is the shower. We can shower standing... or sitting on the head. The walls do get wet. After showering we always open the hatch... it's open in summer when we shower. We squeegee the teak and then wipe it down with the towel. The only thing "wet" when we finish a shower is the teak grate. With the hatch open it dries very quickly. I have a forced air heat outlet in the bulkhead facing the head (toasty warm on cold days!) We we shower our entire head is "washed". Air flows through as the door is typically left open and latched. The head is by no means large but it's large compared to many I've seen.

We have no lingering head odors EVER. At first I had my doubts about a teak walk through head for many reasons. I don't any more and find it a well thought out and brilliant design.

Note we do not sleep in the V. It is use only for guests (rarely)... We stow things in the V... and it's like a walk in closet and its proximity to the head works fine. I also like the fact that the head is as far from the aft cabin where we sleep, the galley and the cockpit.
 

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#19 ·
We also have a solid teak head in a liner. The wall get wet but dry quickly, like Sander the only thing left wet is the floor grate (teak) . We have a nicro vent in the head plus a hatch so it dries quickly. Never had any smell a either wet musty or sewerage.

We sleep in the V a lot. It's very large for a 35 footer and also has a huge hatch. We can also sleep in the salon. A boat our size with the old iroc design has a double quarterbeth but we use it for storage.

Part of why our boats sails so much better than most is it's design. It's isn't a long range cruiser but we have stayed in her for 3-4 weeks and have traveled 100 + miles offshore. I recommended a boat like this as you were looking for something to get practice and learn on for 3 years.

I m not sure with getting the final boat first is the correct strategy when unsure what you will feel is really necessary to have. I think your plan is sound. It will also give you time to continue looking around as to what the final boats offer in person than some internet search.
 
#11 ·
The OP got me thinking after I posted about "dry heads"...

Wouldn't it be useful to have a thread where owners do detailed review of their boats. I think the reviews should be from people who have owned their boats for more than a couple of years. The reviews of course should include how they sail... race, live aboard, week end cruising, distance cruising and of course were they sail or have sailed.

Presumably these sorts of boat owners have modified their boats... electronics, plumbing, sails, ground tackle, rigging, heat, ac, refer accessories, etc... or the mods were done by a previous owner. And presumably these owners will have discovered the strengths of the design of their boats as well as the weaknesses. I would think these sorts of reviews would be useful for someone buying a used boat... from the last decade and older.

I think the write ups should include deck layout, rig, sail control, steering, cockpit design, boarding access, cabin design, stowage cockpit and below, light and ventilation, engine, sleeping arrangement, head, finishes... sole, headliner, joinery. companionway, hull shape/design lay-up, including keel and rudder, build quality. Many of this info is available from the mfg, but should be reprised in a review.

How does the boat sail? light winds, heavy conditions... How is the motion at sea? Is it dry or wet?

What were some good surprises you realized after some time with the boat? What flaws emerged or things you would have wanted to be different?

These reviews would obviously take some effort and be lengthy to read... pics would help of course.

What say you?
 
#12 ·
I never thought I needed powered windows, powered door locks, cruise control, keyless entry, or lately a heated steering wheel. Once I got them anyway, because they simply came with the car I was buying, I'd never go back.

Same for our separate onboard hot water shower. I wasn't shopping for it, but it was on the boat I bought. Remarkable difference in livability.

Do I need it for minimal survival? Of course not. That's not my cruising vision. Further, we like numerous visitors aboard and it seems most don't. IMO, you need more shore-like accommodations, if you want to attract more of your friends and family. If you want to be alone, it can be entirely your own way.
 
#13 ·
I never thought I needed powered windows, powered door locks, cruise control, keyless entry, or lately a heated steering wheel. Once I got them anyway, because they simply came with the car I was buying, I'd never go back.

Same for our separate onboard hot water shower. I wasn't shopping for it, but it was on the boat I bought. Remarkable difference in livability.

Do I need it for minimal survival? Of course not. That's not my cruising vision. Further, we like numerous visitors aboard and it seems most don't. IMO, you need more shore-like accommodations, if you want to attract more of your friends and family. If you want to be alone, it can be entirely your own way.
Understood. I think your experience is not uncommon. I never would have wanted heated seats... but I find them great for my lower back issues... I use them all the time now.

Same for a windlass, an electric windlass and a powered winch!

++++

I would very much like to read a review by some of the great posters here... including YOU about your boat. I've read some excellent comments from salty sailors on this site and I would love for them to review their own boats which informs their thinking it would seem.
 
#15 ·
As an architect who has done residential projects for decades I can assure you that design is a very complex process of listening to different "voices" as I call them. There are all many of constraints a designer must deal with... function, cost, finishes, legal constraints, style, aesthetics, environmental concerns, micro climatology, structure, mechanical systems and of course the program and more. It can be described as a juggling act or a huge jigsaw puzzle.

For sailboat design there are all sorts of precedent and prior "art" not to mention whether the design is intended for racing, local cruising or live aboard and ocean passages. Many boats can be fitted out or stripped down, I suppose to make them more suited to a specific use. Shiva was not designed as a ocean going boat. But with modifications and equipment she became one.

The "separate dry shower" is something seen in a lot of designs. I understand why... I think. But boats are small and why designate a space for a rarely used function like a shower? Obviously for larger boats space is not as much at a premium. I am by no means an expert on head design and haven't looked at or been in many boat heads. However conceptually... if you DON'T use space for a SEPARATE shower that space can be used to make the head larger by making the head the shower. I actually saw this done in a small bathroom in one of my sister's apartments in Florence Italy many years ago. It required that the walls were wiped down etc... and good ventilation but the bathroom was really only wet when used for a shower. It also meant that each use the marble covered walls were wiped clean. I have found the head / shower design in the 36s made a lot of sense. Wiping it down takes less than a minute... and since it's not like there is a line waiting to use the head... a wet head annoyance just doesn't happen. Yet a separate wet shower will usually have poor ventilation and add humidity to the interior of the head and the boat... and be more prone to odors and mildew. Who wipes dry the walls of a shower? Or even the glass door? Our "wet head" is rarely wet but a very functional design and well lit and ventilated too.
 
#16 ·
I guess it depends on your definition of a blue water boat, but the Ericson 35 and 38 have dry heads. The Ericson so far is the only 35 footer I've found with a separate shower stall. Quite a few Beneteau Oceanis and the like have dry heads and are available for under $100k.
 
#17 ·
Just my thought on budgets, and I'll direct this to the OP.

When someone tells be that they have a budget of 100k, I presume that this is their all-in budget. Maybe I'm wrong, and they have a separate budget to refit the vessel for extended cruising. If not, and there is an all-in budget of 100K, maybe there is 70K to purchase the boat, 5K for survey/taxes/etc., leaving a continency of 25K for updates.

Of course, maybe the best boating deals are for older boats that someone else has recently re-fitted?

Jim
 
#18 ·
I find it sad so many appear to accept that water should get inside their boats

The list of good sub $100k boats is HUGE and can be quickly found on a yachtworld boat search
 
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#29 ·
The Contest 36s looks promising and I've emailed the broker.

I appreciate the build quality and the reputation for sea kindliness of the Pacific Seacraft but they don't do much for me style wise. An Ericson 380 built by Pacific Seacraft would be on the short list if available and affordable.

I've found some other prospects on yachtworld and would appreciate your thoughts.
Caliber 33
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/caliber-33-3090721/

Caliber 35
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1993/caliber-35-3584568/

Sabre 34 MkII
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/sabre-34-mark-ii-3499473/

CS34
https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1990/cs-34-3569858/

I also like the layout of the Catilina 34 and 36 and the Beneteau 351.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Unless you deal with the listing broker, which happens to be the listing agent, you probably will not get a discount offered, which is the sellers expense but maybe a possible discount in price as a result. I would be inclined to seek someone who "gets it" as far as your desires and goals. The commission will still be the same and it gets you out of the loop with "stuff". Because we had narrowed the choices to a Pacific Seacraft (had considered many others earlier) we engaged a broker who understood those and sold many.

I know I had suggested looking at the PSC 31 and others are debating a different design but what is the most important matter is that you spend time thinking about the boat's pedigree, quality, seaworthiness and sea kindliness, lot's of time. Spending a bit more for a boat that the PO has refitted and upgraded almost always is a better deal than a project boat, but regardless IT MUST HAVE GOOD BONES. Having the manufacture still in business and the model still being made is great for the reasons I've already stated. There are many boats that meet these requirements, not just PSC or Contest. Based upon your comment about the style of PSC not floating your boat, I would not recommend one even if a great deal and clearly great boats. Ya gotta love her looks! She doesn't have to be perfect, they usually never are, but you must find yourself gazing at her. It also helps if others like to as well!

Finally be willing to change what you want as you acquire knowledge but don't be stopped by the paralysis of analysis. The big thing is to do it! This is a great time to pick up a great boat that needs a new owner. I have remained in contact with the previous and original owner of Interlude since she was new and who had to sell her for health reasons. One of the first questions I asked him was "why that boat with all of the boats out there for sale?" His reply, "have you ever seen a beautiful women with a great personality and just can' get her off your mind?!" Yup, know the feeling, and you will too.
 
#31 ·
In my prejudiced opinion there is no comparison between those two listings. The Contest is loaded with new engine sails, rigging, and equipment life raft, SSB radio, below decks AP... totally loaded and ready to cruise. And the listing is more than 10k below the Pacific Seacraft. Definitely different style and look... but much more value in the Contest. And it sails faster than the Seacraft.
 
#32 ·
All that is what the ad says......and with a grain of salt we know that can not be true.

PS are no slouch boats Jeff.

None of this takes away from the Contest which you sail also so you may be a slight bit prejudiced.
 
#34 ·
Jeff,

you been on SN long enough to have seen others come on here time and time again complaining about the ads the see on line and when they go see the boats it looks nothing like what’s advertised. I don’t beleive all that I read. The pics could be 20 years old of the interior.

the ad says

The list In recent years she's received:

NEW engine
NEW standing and running rigging
NEW steeringYou’ve been on SN long enough to hear p
NEW refrigeration
NEW batteries
NEW spinnaker
NEW roller furler
NEW watermaker
NEW windlass
NEW life raft

My question is how recent. The sails are shot out as the are over 15 years old. the MFD is ancient and will need replacement.

I will point out this boat has been for sale for over 6 months . I’ve seen her advertised that long. If it was such a peach for that price surely someone would have snatched it up. I recall seeing it from afar at the Annapolis Boat Show brokerage basin.

I do suggest the OP check her out of course. She could be legit. She could be a leaky teak with damage. Why did they replace the engine?

Even then $49K is too much. It’s been asking that for 6 months.

The OP has to decide what kind of boat he wants. That’s done by looking at many different kinds. We all have done that buying boats. Some boats talk to you, others don’t. You can only tell by looking at them. Also you have to decide whether the boat you want is appropriate to the area you will sail in. None of can answer that. Only the OP can.

If this is to be sailed in the Chesapeake it would not make my list. If it was for offshore , it definitely makes my list.

Let’s see what he reports back. Would love for him to say it talked to him.
 
#35 ·
And yes I looked at the whole list. Personally I have always like Pacific Seacraft. My best friend has a 37 ketch and sailed 4500 miles on it last year. He spent 5 months in the Caribbean then up the coast to the LI Sound, Maine and Nova Scotia. It’s a great boat. Well made and still made. For the size I would feel safe anywhere on one.

Contests were also made well. We all know your passion for the boat you own. It is commendable. One in great condition would make a sailor who likes that kind of boat very happy.😁
 
#36 · (Edited)
Dave I am not going to argue with you. Some boats are on the market for a long time. Scott bought a boat a like that a year older and it looks the same. Pics don't lie very much. Sure new may not be new in the past year or so... and most owners expect to update electronics and maybe sails which depend on hours of use and conditions of use more than chrono age. Can't tell much about the teak deck from the pics. But the interior doesn't show signs of leaks. It needs to be looked at and surveyed. The price aligns which what similar boats are selling for and we all know equipment doesn't raise the price usually. But the dink, OB and raft will be spendy to replace.

Finally I am biased because I have almost the same boat and have sailed it 40,000+ miles and I know how it sails in all conditions and what it's like to live in. My opinion is based on years of hands on experience. Knowledge is not bias. But I have no experience on a Seacraft. That's correct.
 
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