Shannon 28 v PSC Orion or Niagara 35 v Cape Dory 33 - Page 3 - SailNet Community
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post #21 of 49 Old 09-27-2010
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I would also suggest an Allied Mistress or an Allied Princess, either one of which can easily be found in your price-range. Both are shoal-draft full keel and I believe the Princess is a center-board if I'm not mistaken.

And a boat with loads of stowage and room and ruggedness is the Westsail 32....they can often be found in the $40k range. Not fast but durable.

"...and a star to steer her by."

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post #22 of 49 Old 09-29-2010 Thread Starter
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Sapperwhite, thanks for the additional info on the Orion. I know I have to seriously consider this boat as one that could meet our needs. That New Jersey boat with the red sails caught my eyes as well. Actually, there are a few examples of my choices currently in Annapolis. I am thinking a road trip shortly after the boat show will be in order. Here's hoping they are still available.

Killarney Sailor, you significantly underestimate the value of your input! It sounds like you truly enjoyed owning your Niagara 35 and that's the type of info I am seeking. Plus, you've also sailed a CD. You are providing hands-on knowledge of two of my choices. I so appreciate this. I do like the newer Niagara 35 models with the full V-berth and separate shower (Encore), but they are out of my price range. I am assuming the Mark I is the same hull with the same sea keeping abilities. On paper, I love this boat. A question I had with the Niagara's modern underbody was whether she might pound in a head sea?

SoulVoyage, the Mistress and the Princess are probably within the realm of my budget. But then I would be incurring big boat costs not factored into my forecasted budget. As it is, I am still a little skeptical of the Niagara at 35 ft. Allied's Seawind is another great boat. But, like the Westsail 32, is it practical for day sailing? If I were mainly going to be offshore, the Seawind and the Westsail would be two of my top picks.

Thanks folks. I was hoping the choice might get easier, but it is not. Just shows you, these are great boats!

Jim
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post #23 of 49 Old 09-30-2010
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Jim,

I thought I might elaborate a bit more on the subject of draft, which I mentioned earlier. I recognize now that what I previously wrote was somewhat ambiguous:

Quote:
Your homeport will be in relatively shallow cruising grounds, so you have a hard requirement for moderate/shallow draft. The boat that is ideal for your immediate purposes of coastal sailing with shallow draft, may not end up being the ideal boat for jaunts out to Bermuda (especially as you move up into the larger size range.)
What I meant, very generally speaking, was that as the boats you look at get longer/larger, the negative affect on performance of the shallow draft constraint will increase.

Using extreme examples, on a 20 foot boat, shallow draft might mean 2-3' draft. On a 50 foot boat, it might mean 7' draft. But if you were to give that 20' sailboat a 5' draft, it would be considered "deep draft". The 50' sailboat with the same 5' draft would be considered fairly drastic shoal draft.

The 20' boat with the 5' draft would probably perform extremely well to windward. The 50' boat with the 5' draft would likely be very compromised to windward.

The example above is a bit of an oversimplification, as there are other factors involving hull form and keel span, but I think it's useful for illustrative purposes. I guess the message, in other words, is that "shallow draft" is a relative term.

This is something to keep in mind as you search for your new boat. Your requirement for relatively shallow draft means that you should look not just for a boat which fits the draft requirement, but whose performance also is not unduly hampered by it.

The good news is, your requirement for sub-5' draft should not be too difficult to meet. And as long as you keep the boat size modest, you should be able to find a decent performer as well.


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post #24 of 49 Old 09-30-2010
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Niagara comments

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Originally Posted by SeaQwest View Post
I do like the newer Niagara 35 models with the full V-berth and separate shower (Encore), but they are out of my price range. I am assuming the Mark I is the same hull with the same sea keeping abilities. On paper, I love this boat. A question I had with the Niagara's modern underbody was whether she might pound in a head sea?

t
I like the Encore design better for most purposes but it is not as good offshore as the Mark I which has better sea berths. I really liked the Niagara for offshore even snarky conditions but the admiral said we had to get a bigger boat with a more comfortable double berth. Couldn't find a N 42 at a reasonable price so ended up with the Bristol which is wonderful but not as pretty a design.

If you look at a N35 in cross-section it is not really a modern underbody in the sense of a flattish section. It is really quite rounded so does not pound at all. Mark Ellis is a terrific designer who does an excellent job of combining traditional and more modern elements (by the latter I mean 1980s thinking not 2010 thinking with funny shaped foils. He put a longish fin keel and (huge) spade rudder on because it was his feeling they make for a better cruising boat. The rudder for example gives one amazing control of the boat even in reverse - want reverse figure 8's - go for it. With a Cape Dory and similar boat reverse is always a bit of an adventure. With my Bristol I can turn wonderfully to the right by using prop walk and back and forthing it. making a sharp turn to the left just does not happen. On occasions I have had to make a 270* turn to the right instead.

I had another thought, you might want to look at the Aloha 32. It is an Ellis design and is essentially a Niagara 35 that got left out in the rain and shrunk a bit. Aloha made some good boats but I am not certain the quality is as good as Hinterhoeller - an Aloha owner might disagree. These are harder to find but would be much cheaper and give you more money for upgrades and a cruising kitty.

Have fun with your research.

After the refit we have decided to sell Ainia. We want something smaller that would be could for the light summer winds of Lake Ontario, although we plan to spend at least a couple of winters in the Caribbean before heading north.
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post #25 of 49 Old 09-30-2010 Thread Starter
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John, thanks for the explanation. I think I understand. If all else is equal, a 28ft boat with a 5ft draft might be more conducive for bluewater passage making than a 45ft boat with a 5ft draft, especially if you are predominantly going to windward. However, just when I think I have a grasp on this relativity concept, some one throws a "Scheel" keel into the equation! Actually, I took a huge liking to a PSC 34 awhile back, but the 4ft 3in Scheel configuration had me a little leary. Now, I understand even Hinckley routinely uses them.

Killarney Sailor, you are really making the Niagara 35 appealing to me. However, the double berth could be too cozy for us as well. I am 5'8'', the Admiral is 5'2''. I guess we could treat the aft end at the foot of the companionway as a single cabin with a berth for each of us (she would probably get the double). There doesn't seem to be any privacy between the two quarterberths anyway. Company would have to sleep in the main cabin on the settees. There are doors separating the two cabins and each cabin has separate access to the head. I think this works for me.

I have to go see these vessels. I know where there is a Shannon 28, a Niagara 35 and a PSC Orion all for sale...Annapolis here I come.

Thanks again guys. What a great source of knowledge you sailnetters are.

Jim
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post #26 of 49 Old 10-01-2010
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too late?

Hey -
I didn't see this thread until late last night and I wrote you a long reply in defense of the CD33 (I somehow deleted it as I went to post) -- and I am a big fan of the other boats you are looking at as well. Email me if you want to talk about the CD (I sail a 330 which is the same hull). Also -- there are at least 2 CD33's close to annapolis for sale. Check the CD site capedory.org for contact infop (not sure if they are on yachtworld). Getting on the boats is the absolute best thing to do. I found the CD33 to be the most bang for the buck.

Have fun
BS

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post #27 of 49 Old 10-01-2010
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Jim,

By all reports, the Scheel keel is a decent arrangement for knocking off some draft. There's been some testing done in the past suggesting the Scheel profile is not as efficient a foil as a standard NACA cross section, but most who need the shallower draft are happy to lose a bit of efficiency to gain access to skinny water while preserving righting moment.

You mentioned the PSC 34, which is very similar in design to my boat, the PSC 31 (ours does not have the canoe stern -- otherwise very similar hull). In our case, I much prefer the 4'10" fin keel to the 4' Scheel keel. It saves us about 700 lbs in displacement (the Scheel keel is heavier in order to achieve the same righting moment with less draft), and performs very nicely. We're still under 5' draft, which works well on the Chesapeake.

So I guess the question is, how shallow do you need it to be? If 5' draft is okay for your intended cruising area, there's really no need to seek out a Scheel keel on a PSC 31 or 34 (virtually identical drafts). However, I wouldn't dismiss a prospect because it had a Scheel keel, either.

Then again, there are folks that need to drop that 10" of draft in order to dock their boat -- so some folks can make a good argument for the Scheel.


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post #28 of 49 Old 10-01-2010 Thread Starter
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Killarney Sailor, "...not as pretty a design". I must have missed this the first time I read it. The Bristol is an outstanding boat and as pretty as they come! I assume the 45.5 is still a Ted Hood design? I know I love his 40 ft Bristol. How do you like the center cockpit versus the aft cockpit that you have had with your prior vessels? I think I also like the fact ( I assume) the hull is solid versus balsa or airex cored. And WOW, the room you must have! I am envious. Hey, I am also curious...on your Niagara 35, did you have the sail drive or the V drive? I have been shying away from the sail drives, but not exactly sure why. Maybe I just like stuffing boxes.

Blowinstink, thanks for the response. No it is not too late. I still like the CD33. Actually, I like the 330 even better cause it has the full V berth instead of the L-shaped single. Plus, I think it has a separate shower stall right? I love the Alberg designs and their numbers have to make them good bluewater sailors. Typical of Alberg, the beam is a little narrow, but most would say that is a good thing. Also, the trunk cabin looks a little long, but the trade-off is excellent head room throughout. How does she sail? The problem with the 330 is there are not a lot of them out there.

Look forward to continuing this chat. Thanks.

Jim
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post #29 of 49 Old 10-01-2010
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CD's

Hi Jim -
No, there aren't so many 330's around. There are quite a few 33's however (which is one of the reasons why I think the 33 is such a good value -- there are so many on the market at any given time). You are right that the 330 has a more useful vee berth and a large head with stall shower (really a separated shower -- not a separate compartment like in a tayana). You do give up the q-berth and the sit down chart table which the 33 have but the 330 does not. The galley also becomes a corner galley on the 330 rather than the traditional "U" galley of the 33. The cabin trunk on the 330 is 4" wider. The 330 has a bowsprit and is "cutter" rigged - the 33 is almost always sloop rigged. They really feel like, and are, completely different boats (except for the hull which is identical). At the end of the day, I went with the 330 because I found one which was very clean and very well equipped for a great price. If a comparable deal had been available on a 33 at the time I probably would have gone for the 33 (now, I am not so sure ).

Definitely check out the capedory board (Welcome to the Cape Dory Sailboat Owners Association's Home Page) as some of the boats f/s there may not be on yachtworld. I know there are quite a few 33's (including some on the chesapeake) and at least 2 330's on the market right now.

The narrow alberg hull is a curse and a blessing -- it sails great. I have been suprised by its ability to get moving in light air and it tracks really well once it gets going. I think the narrow hull should make it a more suitable offshore boat too -- both for ultimate stability and practicality in a seaway. The downside is that it seriously cuts into interior space. Again, you'll get a much better sense of this when you get aboard the boats.

I looked at all of the boats you are considering -- I never got aboard the Niagra as there weren't many on the market. The Shannon I loved but nice ones were way out of my price range. The Orion was my first choice for a while. I actually looked at, and really liked, the boat Chris (sapper) bought. Ultimately, I found the CD to offer more bang for the buck. Although, I could have been very happy with an Orion MarkII. I recall many of the Orions having rot issues with the bowsprit and the samson posts and the seahood (some seahoods are f/g others are wood). Also, I recall tanks being a recurring issue (the biggest issue on the CD's seems to be buried chainplates made of second grade steel which sometimes require repalcement). But, I love the raised bulwark on the PSC boats and the "C" layout on the Orion (the dinnette version) is a fantastic setup (IMO).

In the end, there were never more than 4-5 Orions on the market and I never found one at the right price (when I had the funds) to justify its condition. I found the best 33' CDs to offer way more value. All of the boats you are looking at are well built and capable. They are look pretty sweet, to my eye, too. In the end, there is no substitute for spending time aboard -- except maybe taking one for a survey and rejecting it (been there . . .)!!!

Enjoy the hunt!

BS
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post #30 of 49 Old 10-01-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
With a Cape Dory and similar boat reverse is always a bit of an adventure. With my Bristol I can turn wonderfully to the right by using prop walk and back and forthing it. making a sharp turn to the left just does not happen. On occasions I have had to make a 270* turn to the right instead.
Have fun with your research.
Always and adventure! Though we can generally do the prop walk thing too.
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