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post #211 of 306 Old 12-11-2016
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

Fair enough if you are talking about a good waiter. I think Mike posted about the typical tippers. Certainly when out with the lads our waiter or waitress would do well. I addition to high bills, lots of drinks, we would all put down much more than required and just call it the tip.

Which is why I don't see it equating to sailing instruction. I didn't instruct for tips and I believe I gave very good instruction. Is just giving good instruction good service.
I was not a waiter, I did not fetch drinks for my students or cook their meals or clean up after them. If this is what is expected. As good service when on a sailing instruction cruise and learn. Then I didn't give it and perhaps never got a tip because I didn't deserve one.
If I was expected to serve the students as well as instruct the students I would not have enjoyed the experience and quite instructing pretty early on.

I could see a with a Charter crew and skipper. Service would be expected. Good service expected as part of the experience and so a Tip would be appropriate.
At one time I crewed on Booze cruise trips. The bar and wait staff were tipped. As you might expect. As deck crew we were not and tips were not shared with us. But I didn't wait on the passengers.
Under normal circumstance.
On a Charter who would you tip. the cook and stewards. they serve you but why the skipper?
Which brings me back to the original question about the Bareboat Skipper.

All the justification from the restaurant industry just doesn't convert to a similar service to be rewarded with a tip.
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Last edited by Uricanejack; 12-11-2016 at 02:58 AM.
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post #212 of 306 Old 12-11-2016
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

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Originally Posted by Uricanejack View Post
As a customer or patron. I don't have any real way of telling which business has a fair wage practice or not.
That is exactly why what a waitress or cook is paid isn't up to a patron.

I don't believe for a second that any of you ask about pay scales and then walk out if you think it's too low.

I think you go where you want to go, and you tip or you don't, based on whatever tea-leaf-gazing selection process and criteria you used to decide what you want for dinner.
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

I promised another example

One of the best positions in F&B in the casinos which were unionized was a non-tipped beverage server in a buffet with an annual budget of 58 million. (No lie)

Extremely busy place sat 890. $11.95 till 4PM the $20 for seafood.
Each " server" was designated a buffet beverage server made union wage of $11/HR plus benefits. They didn't get food, just beverages and cleared the table. Again non tipped. Average section had 50 seats.

Employees worked 6 hour shifts. Average turn of tables 1 hour. Average age of beverage servers 70. Even though not tipped people felt they should leave something so the left $1. Average tips $250 in ones per night. Employees went to bank with stacks of $1 bills every 5 days.

Declared wages $22,000 per year. Tips untaxed $62,000 year. Average $51 per hour plus benefits.
Cocktail servers averaged over $100/000 per year.

BTW the majority of buffet patrons were comps and bus comps so the casino wrote their cost off as a cost for doing business in their taxes.

Most of you know my former boss was Donald J Trump. My casino went bankrupt 3 times in 12 years to avoid paying creditors. It's now closed.


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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uricanejack View Post
Fair enough if you are talking about a good waiter. I think Mike posted about the typical tippers. Certainly when out with the lads our waiter or waitress would do well. I addition to high bills, lots of drinks, we would all put down much more than required and just call it the tip.

Which is why I don't see it equating to sailing instruction. I didn't instruct for tips and I believe I gave very good instruction. Is just giving good instruction good service.
I was not a waiter, I did not fetch drinks for my students or cook their meals or clean up after them. If this is what is expected. As good service when on a sailing instruction cruise and learn. Then I didn't give it and perhaps never got a tip because I didn't deserve one.
If I was expected to serve the students as well as instruct the students I would not have enjoyed the experience and quite instructing pretty early on.

I could see a with a Charter crew and skipper. Service would be expected. Good service expected as part of the experience and so a Tip would be appropriate.
At one time I crewed on Booze cruise trips. The bar and wait staff were tipped. As you might expect. As deck crew we were not and tips were not shared with us. But I didn't wait on the passengers.
Under normal circumstance.
On a Charter who would you tip. the cook and stewards. they serve you but why the skipper?
Which brings me back to the original question about the Bareboat Skipper.

All the justification from the restaurant industry just doesn't convert to a similar service to be rewarded with a tip.

This was exactly the reason I termed Ricks trip a charter. Wasn't meant to demean the instruction or certification. It was meant to point out the similarity it was to a crewed/ captain charted who I would tip.
I would not tip an instructor, however I'd buy his shore meal.


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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

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if the sailing schools started charging what they really needed to charge to pay a decent wage to the instructors and keep their boats in good shape many of them would close for lack of business.
Perhaps the problem is that there are too many sailing schools. This sounds like lawn care 'businesses' where I live. Every guy with a pickup truck and lawn mower thinks he is a lawn care service. Here, one can have his lawn done for $20/cut. No one tips these guys. They provide a service. Where do you draw the line?
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

There is an important element that hasn't been addressed in this discussion of what should or should not be.

Change is hard.

We are not talking about starting a culture from scratch. We're talking about (at least those who think tipping should be different) changing an existing culture.

The article @chef2sail linked gets to the edge of the issue. The examples cited an important portion of both customers and staff did not like the change. They didn't go on to discuss why which is just as well because they'd be guessing. *grin* Figuring out why is a lot of work.

In my previous life I was a turnaround program manager. More often than not fixing technical elements was not nearly as much work as changing a culture (usually a disfunctional one).

I can't even imagine the degree of coordination and education and the shear number of believers it would take to change the tipping culture in the Americas, any more than fundamentally changing the different culture in the EU.

So it is what it is. You can rail against. You can say something else would be better. Actually making change is a huge amount of work.

The reality is that the customer-facing skippers on bareboats, crewed charters, and liveaboard instructors in the Caribbean work in a culture that includes tipping. There are exceptions but that is the culture.

Changing culture is hard.
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

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Originally Posted by ianjoub View Post
Perhaps the problem is that there are too many sailing schools. This sounds like lawn care 'businesses' where I live. Every guy with a pickup truck and lawn mower thinks he is a lawn care service. Here, one can have his lawn done for $20/cut. No one tips these guys. They provide a service. Where do you draw the line?
That's a possibility. There are at least 3 schools on the lower Hudson operating in New York Harbor.

Weekdays, in season, certainly don't fill all the boats. Weekends might. There are probably a number of factors. Too many schools, too many instructors, not enough clients, a price point that seems to be sensitive.
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

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Which is why I don't see it equating to sailing instruction. I didn't instruct for tips and I believe I gave very good instruction

All the justification from the restaurant industry just doesn't convert to a similar service to be rewarded with a tip.

I don't believe that I was trying to justify tipping. You asked what instructors got paid. I believe I provided that information for my local area. Since the thread had already drifted in to the foodservice world, I used it to simply put the wages in comparison.

You also confirmed in a previous post, what I have pointed out. When you taught, your motivation was not primarily income. You taught to sail on nicer boats than you would normally get to sail on, for discounts, and to sail in nice places, and that's great! Some of those incentives, and others, draw instructors willing to work for wages as you stated, that barely covered the cost of going sailing. Faced with the reality of that, I got out of the teaching business, the inducements that worked for you didn't work for me.
No worries. I had fun when I did it, and now I do something else.
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
There is an important element that hasn't been addressed in this discussion of what should or should not be.

Change is hard.
...
I can't even imagine the degree of coordination and education and the shear number of believers it would take to change the tipping culture in the Americas, any more than fundamentally changing the different culture in the EU.

So it is what it is. You can rail against. You can say something else would be better. Actually making change is a huge amount of work.
Agreed. I’ve said so; this train left the station a long time ago. My comments are about halting the expansion of this economic system. We’ve been drawn into this restaurant discussion b/c it is the most established tipping system.

I do think things can change. It ain’t easy, and it will take a long time, and I applaud and support those making an effort in this area. But it’s not my hill to die on.

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The reality is that the customer-facing skippers on bareboats, crewed charters, and liveaboard instructors in the Caribbean work in a culture that includes tipping. There are exceptions but that is the culture.
Well, as examples provided here show, it ain’t the whole reality. And just like restaurant tipping is largely an American(& Canadian) thing, I bet tipping in the boating industry is likewise. It would be an interesting comparison to look at American-run operations vs European or Canadian.

Like I say, my wife used a Canadian company to do her Caribbean courses. No tipping. Posters have mentioned other companies which don’t pressure customers into tipping. Is this mostly an American thing?
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Re: Tipping a skipper on a bareboat charter

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Originally Posted by ianjoub View Post
Perhaps the problem is that there are too many sailing schools.
Kinda my point about suggesting some of these sailing schools and charter businesses should die. If they are only viable by paying their workers poorly, and by letting their capital stock run down (through poor maintenance), then surely the free market says they should fail.

Business operate by maximizing revenue and minimizing expenses. A tipping culture is one way for a business to offload the cost of workers — to create an “externality" in biz-lingo. For those who believe in free markets, externalities are distortions that should be discouraged.

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