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post #61 of 79 Old 04-04-2017
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

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this staying in the water all year intrigues me.
I had assumed that all boats were hauled out in case of ice damage, but does the water ever freeze over?
We put bubblers/ice eaters in the water at my dock. This is essentially a weighted, submersible electric motor with a propeller on it that circulates warmer water from below, to the surface. The constant motion also reduces or prevents freezing.

My boat sits in its own, private pool of liquid water all winter. The bubblers also protect the pier from "pile jacking" caused by ice lifting the pilings out as the tide rises and lowers.
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post #62 of 79 Old 04-04-2017
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

I've hauled for the winter once in 30 years. The hull was dented by improper jacking. Never since, don't see the point.

And the sailing was lovely Sunday. I sail all year, more fun for the $$. Spring commissioning is just a matter of filling the water tank (it was cleaned and left dry in the fall).
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post #63 of 79 Old 04-04-2017
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

Let me get through my first sailing season and see how I go

Kills me though to visit it on land and needing a ladder to get in....

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post #64 of 79 Old 04-04-2017
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

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Originally Posted by Ajax_MD View Post
We put bubblers/ice eaters in the water at my dock. This is essentially a weighted, submersible electric motor with a propeller on it that circulates warmer water from below, to the surface. The constant motion also reduces or prevents freezing.

My boat sits in its own, private pool of liquid water all winter. The bubblers also protect the pier from "pile jacking" caused by ice lifting the pilings out as the tide rises and lowers.
We use a bubbler also. This year it never went on but for 1 week


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post #65 of 79 Old 04-04-2017
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

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I think I'm going to continue with the same paint that's on the boat now: Nautical ProGuard Ablative made by AkzoNobel.
For what it's worth, that's what I use on brackish water in Barnegat Bay, and it's been great for me. I didn't even really choose it on purpose...I tried to do some research online, but it felt like asking "What's the best religion?" and I wound up blindly going with the marina's recommendation. This year was my second haul out with it, and I've had absolutely zero hard growth (but definitely some on the prop, so I know they're in there).

Easy to apply, good open time in the tray but not bad drying time on the boat, toss the chip brush, paint tray liner, and the fuzzy part of the roller when you're finished, zip zap: done.

https://sailingfortuitous.com/the-enemy-of-good/

I'm trying to be more zen about this stuff.
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post #66 of 79 Old 04-04-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

My purpose in starting this thread was to discuss some different paint options than the standard paint lines that everyone is always pushing. I had sworn by Ultima SR-40/WM PCA Gold before, but my new boat and new location were an opportunity to consider alternatives. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do what I am doing, but I also think it's healthy to reconsider one's cherished beliefs occasionally. I re-think all the options every time I paint.

Seeing that Nautical ProGuard Ablative had never been mentioned on Sailnet, and never been reviewed in Practical Sailor or any other major publication, I thought you guys would be interested in hearing about my good experience with it so far. If not, then just put me on ignore.

I do not ever intend to re-paint my entire bottom every year. I've always done a few touchups every off-season, and I intentionally save some leftover paint to do that in future years. Seeing how well my ProGuard performed for me, and how much pristine paint is left on the vast majority of the bottom, I have good reason to believe that it will last me 2-3 seasons with only minor touchups. If not, I'll be looking for a different paint. But for this coming season, I've ordered one gallon of the stuff to effectively do large area touchups for the next couple of years. I'm not even going to mask off the bootstripe, because the actual waterline (where some wear occurred) is far enough below the masking line that I can touch it up without masking.

This discussion has also morphed into a debate on winter haulouts. I can see the benefits of staying in the water all year. If I lived 45 minutes or less from a good sailing location, I'd leave her in too. But I live an hour and 45 minutes away, and I just don't want to have to worry about the things that can go wrong in a winter storm. So I haul out at a local club that's 12 minutes from my house, and only charges me $400 for haulout/storage/launch. Every storm I can run down and check on things easily - plus easy proximity for winter projects. My walk-through transom with swim ladder makes for a trivial climb into the boat. I've been to the boat in 40+ mph winds on the stands, and I've seen no problems with energy dissipation. I've never even seen a hint of oil canning on the hull. Insurance statistics say the boat is safer on stands, though clearly neither in-water or on the hard is 100% perfect.

So to all of you who are fortunate enough to enjoy being in the water all winter, good for you! It's just not a perfect solution for everyone.

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post #67 of 79 Old 04-05-2017
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

Rick,

No one wants to put you on ignore for expressing your opinions nor should they. My opinions based on the facts : things I have seen are why I posted what I have. I have seen boats misshapen after spending a winter on jackstands. I have experienced the "tuning fork " phenomenon on my own boat on the land. I think people want to hear from other sailors on here and their experiences even if they are different so they can determine what they want to do for their own boats. There is no need to defend your actions or what you do what you do for your boat when I or someone else poses a contrary or dissimilar way of handling things.

After receiving many opinions you decided you were sticking with what brought you here. You have you reasons and there is no right or wrong only what's right for you and others can / will decide what's right for them when it comes to deciding bottom paint or whether to haul and reprint every year.

Many times threads do morph and other things are discussed related. Just because you start a thread doesn't necessarily mean you control it. We all have seen that happen where a thread morphs . Many times the more is relevant to those who are posting and also exposed paralllel or other issues telating to the main topic. In this case the revelance was apparent as many chimed in.

Very few of us have a deal as you do for a $400 hsul
Haul out and launch. We could travel 55 miles on way to the Deleware River but we don't . For us it's still cheaper to just stay in our slip. Checking on our boat once a month is no big deal and we are usually doing projects year round anyway. Intuitively I doubt that's it's less dangerous to be on land but you say there are insurance statistics so maybe you can share your references. I always like seeing metrics on decision making.

It's good you have reaffirmed your decision to stay with what you have. It's is also good others chimed in with their opinions and practices so as to share with newcomers as well as seasoned sailors on Sailnet. All is good🤘🤘🤘😄😄😄😄


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post #68 of 79 Old 04-05-2017
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
My purpose in starting this thread was to discuss some different paint options than the standard paint lines that everyone is always pushing. I had sworn by Ultima SR-40/WM PCA Gold before, but my new boat and new location were an opportunity to consider alternatives. I'm not suggesting that anyone should do what I am doing, but I also think it's healthy to reconsider one's cherished beliefs occasionally. I re-think all the options every time I paint.

Seeing that Nautical ProGuard Ablative had never been mentioned on Sailnet, and never been reviewed in Practical Sailor or any other major publication, I thought you guys would be interested in hearing about my good experience with it so far. If not, then just put me on ignore.
I for one certainly appreciate the information. In particular since it comes from someone (you) who knows a lot more about paint formulations than I do, and who is able to competently chat with paint sellers.

I won't use the Nautical ProGuard paint this time since I already have my bottom paint in the basement (always buy it in the way-off-season when it is cheaper). But I will certainly give Nautical ProGuard Ablative a try at the next haulout -- in two years!
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post #69 of 79 Old 03-16-2019 Thread Starter
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

Good news, everyone! Irgarol (aka NCN; aka (4E)-4-(Cyclopropylimino)-N-(2-methyl-2-propanyl)-6-(methylsulfanyl)-1,4-dihydro-1,3,5-triazin-2-amine) is finally available to bottom paint manufacturers again, and reappearing in their updated formulas.

NOTE: Some environmentalists may not consider this good news, since Irgarol's effects on the environment are a concern due to potential distortion of the bottom of the food chain.

You can find this slime reducing additive in many paints, including Pettit Ultima SR60 and SR40. Petit had compensated for the loss of Irgarol by raising copper content to 65% and 47.5% (respectively), and (I think) adding some PTFE, presumably to resist adhesion of slime. Now they appear to have gone back to the old formulas with 60% and 40% copper content, and 2% Irgarol.

At the moment Pettit shows product data sheets for BOTH Irgarol and Irgarol-free versions on their website, presumably because both versions are still out there in the supply chain:

Pettit | Ultima SR-60 (Note two TDSs for the two formulas)

Pettit | Ultima SR-40 (Note two TDSs for the two formulas)

You may want to check the label of whatever you buy to make sure you know what you are getting. Maybe you prefer the new/old formula with Irgarol, but maybe you prefer the interim formula with higher copper content. This is a good reason to buy this stuff from a brick-and-mortar store, since you'll know exactly what you are getting.

I am sticking with my inexpensive AkzoNobel Nautical Proguard Ablative paint ($90/gallon). I stumbled onto this paint almost by accident when I bought my boat. Herrington Harbor put it on a completely clean bottom (PO had stripped it), and it worked better than I expected. The main benefit I've seen is that it has adhered very well with virtually no chips coming off at all (which was a problem with my prior boat). I know from experience what a pain it can be to battle adhesion problems, so I'm playing it safe and sticking with the exact same paint to ensure that I have the maximum inter-coat compatibility.

As for Pettit's "orphaned" formulas of Ultima paints without the Irgarol that were sold from 2016-2018, I do not believe that Practical Sailor ever tested them. Perhaps Drew can chime in and let us know.
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post #70 of 79 Old 03-17-2019
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Re: Water based anti-fouling in the Chesapeake

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Let's face it...if I pulled my boat every year...I would use the cheap stuff too. Why use expensive paint and pay for it to be hauled every year. It would be a no brainier and not need a lot of large discussion. Most of us are weekend warriors. The real difference is between the year round in the water vs the 7 months in 5 months out

I prefer not to pull the boat and stick her in 8 jackstands on land for many reasons
1- added expense , lots of expense which I can put to use to charter someplace nice once a year
2- I hate hearing my mast humming in the wind like a tuning fork with no where for the energy to go except down 8 jackstands. At least
In the water the energy is disapated
3- the least amount of time Haleakula goes into the slings or for that matter jack stands the less chance for pressure to be put on specific
Points of her structure which really are not designed for that.
4- it's much harder for me to work on anything internal in Haleakula if I have to go up a ladder.
5- like Sisyphus repetitively painting every year is an excercise in futility.
6- the least amount of times I have to sand/ paint around those toxic chemicals the better
7- I am not at the mercy of some one telling me I must be pulled by a certain time and the fretting / being upset about being
Blocked in when I want to launch. This shortens the sailing season.

For those of us who leave our boats in the water multiple years the choice of bottom paint is much more critical. Also a certified diver to mind it a couple times a season is a good policy.

Like I said if I was a one year at a time boater, I would look for the cheapest paint. At $80 a gallon that certainly fits the bill. But let's face it you get what you pay for. Spending $120 more a gallon or $240 more ( which really is minor , and because it is on for 3 years actually is the same cost per year at $80) when we used Micron Extra or CSC they were good two year paints. The Ultima has allowed us three with two dives a year. I never worry about our bottom paint since we switched. Also many have my friends who use Ultima either 40 or 60 never consider going back.

One of our criteria for a marina was one which had fixed piers and also the fee was for year round usage. This actually cuts down on our expense of hauling.

So you can choose to roll that boulder up the hill every year, and then let it roll down, or spend your time on other pleasurable things than painting the bottom of the boat.
Lots of good point here. My experience with several spendy bottom paints from Interlux and Petit is that they don't perform as advertised. I've tried annual maintenance and bi annual with the same results. I don't think ablative work with sailboats which are not moving a lot of the time. I have not tried cheap paints.

I now use a multi year approach not multi applications of paint and pay a diver to clean the bottom multiple times each season.. and always before we head off for a multi week vacation cruise. Diver inspects zinc and can change if needed (not needed). Paint is bad for you and bad for the environment and a huge expense. Do it as little as you can. I'd rather pay Sandy to dive a 6 times than Petit for a few gallons of paint and the yard to haul, block and launch the boat. More divers less paint!!!!!!!!

I see no reason to dry winter store unless you need to work on the boat from the toe rail down. Waxing, hull painting and so on really need to be done with the boat on stands. But going up and down a ladder doing interior projects is nuts. And you can't really do engine work on the hard... where the engine is run for any length of time. In water seems to be the way to go and I see no down side. Freezing water in hoses with an open seacock could sink the boat. So you need to properly winterize. Bubblers seem OK... a little ice will not do anything to your hull. Working inside the boat is much easier and I do a bunch of projects in wet storage. You can heat the boat while you are there with portable electric heat.

Seems like there are some dumb things which boat owners and boat yard feel compelled to do when there are alternatives (less money and less danger and less waste of time).

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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