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post #11 of 52 Old 12-25-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Why do you need a new boat??? Lot of older boats out there that are good cruisers.
+1


There's a lot of good older boats out there. The Nor'sea can still be built new. If you're interested in the NS27, feel free to join the Nor'sea Owners Group.

Cape Dory's a good boats, as well as Albin Vegas, PSC Dana, BCC28, and many more. Try looking at some of the older boats, you might find yourself a gem. I know I did.

Daniel
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post #12 of 52 Old 12-25-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

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I love the idea of cruising in a boat less than 30 feet in length. Various reasons why; easier to handle, the challenge of taking along the bare minimums, etc... Nor'se 27 and the Dana 24 are peeking my interest, they fit the bill, mostly. Except for the fact that they are aging. I can't seem to find any manufacturers that are still making blue water cruisers less than 30 feet in length. Any recommendations?


Can I suggest a book?
Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere
Book by John Vigor

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post #13 of 52 Old 12-25-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

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Nothing you've said changes my position the tiniest bit. I'd no more cruise one of those boats than I would a Volvo Ocean 65.
My first big boat was a Rhodes design, Stone built ocean racer, bought to do a circumnavigation. As a racer I didn't have a clue what a cruising sailboat should be. I was absolutely a ludicrous cruising boat. Over powered, over sticked and with 23 bags of sails there wasn't all that much room below for the crew.
No thanks. A lightweight sled just doesn't appeal to me as a cruising boat. I'll take a boat with a stern that doesn't have a "welcome aboard" sign for old mother ocean when she's in a foul mood.
I would much prefer a boat that isnt dependent on the drainage speed of a 1" tube remaining unplugged to keep the boat from swamping. Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up, it has ceased to be an issue on modern designs.

The fact that boats have changed since you first started cruising seems beyond you. The Pogo is specced with a square headed main (no backstay or runners), a roller non-overlapping jib, and an asymetric spin on a furler. Why in gods name would you ever want to add a loft worth of sails to it? Even the Class 40 that the 30 derives from sail with just a handful of sails.

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post #14 of 52 Old 12-26-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

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Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up,
I have never, ever heard of any boat that has sunk because the cockpit filled with water (with the hatches properly secured), in the 50+ years I have been on the water, pretty much full time.
From my experience, if the weather is that extreme, there is so much motion that most of the water is flung out of the boat long before the scuppers become a problem. What boat is going to remain on an even keel when it's so rough that the cockpit is filling with water?
Even in a full fledged tropical cyclone off Fiji on a 1909 Gaff ketch, with huge waves filling the cockpit on a regular basis, never once was THAT a major concern. The water was literally just flung right back out of the cockpit!
I'd like you to back up that statement, "Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up" with some facts, because as I said, I've never heard of that being the sole cause of the loss of one boat, let alone "plenty"!
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post #15 of 52 Old 12-26-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

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Originally Posted by capta View Post
I have never, ever heard of any boat that has sunk because the cockpit filled with water (with the hatches properly secured), in the 50+ years I have been on the water, pretty much full time.
From my experience, if the weather is that extreme, there is so much motion that most of the water is flung out of the boat long before the scuppers become a problem. What boat is going to remain on an even keel when it's so rough that the cockpit is filling with water?
Even in a full fledged tropical cyclone off Fiji on a 1909 Gaff ketch, with huge waves filling the cockpit on a regular basis, never once was THAT a major concern. The water was literally just flung right back out of the cockpit!
I'd like you to back up that statement, "Plenty of boats every year seem to sink because the cockpit filled up" with some facts, because as I said, I've never heard of that being the sole cause of the loss of one boat, let alone "plenty"!
According to the annual statistic she published by Boat US and the Marine insurance industry the single largest cause of sinking is the failure of a below the waterline thru hull fitting. The second largest cause of sinking is a self draining cockpit that doesn't. The failure of self draining cockpits accounts for about one third of all recreational boats that sink.

None of the modern, open transom boats suffer from this design defect.

Speaking of the Pogo specifically, the single largest risk of sinking on an underway sailboat is from striking an underwater object. Accounting for about 40% of sailboats that sink underway. In the Pogo's case the pivoting keel that lifts in the event of a colission also eliminates or mitigates the single most common cause. Not to mention allowing a very deep draft while underway, and still allowing access to shallow water anchorages.

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post #16 of 52 Old 12-26-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

I think the self draining sinkings are unattended boats that have leaves in the drain and the rain eventually makes it to the washboards. Seen a few derelict boats go down this way.

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post #17 of 52 Old 12-26-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

Looking at the Pogo 30 I wouldn't consider it a great boat for offshore cruising. That swing keel will get knocked off pretty easily when striking an underwater object. No backstay or runners? Not what I would want sailing downwind in the trades. There are absolutely zero handholds in the big wide interior - that's a problem offshore. Only 25 gallons water tankage, and 10 gals of fuel tankage? Hope you aren't doing much more than a few days passage. The interior looks like it is full of berths, but very little storage, and with a d/l of 102 you better not load much of anything in it anyways. Likewiise, with that d/l and flat bottom you better keep it moving good through the waves going to weather or you are going to have a vomit machine. Open transom design - hope you like getting soaked from boarding seas, and hope you are tethered in good. Big plexi ports that can become stove in. Not my idea of a passagemaker.

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post #18 of 52 Old 12-26-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

Go for the Bristol Channel Cutter, a proven ocean boat with safe cockpit as well as reasonable accommodations.
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post #19 of 52 Old 12-26-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
The second largest cause of sinking is a self draining cockpit that doesn't. The failure of self draining cockpits accounts for about one third of all recreational boats that sink.
Somehow I thought this discussion was about cruising boats, boats sailing offshore, etc., not unattended boats sitting in a marina or on some mooring.
Sorry, my mistake.
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"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.
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post #20 of 52 Old 12-26-2016
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Re: Are any still in business?

The problem is not self draining cockpits not draining but that a boat without a bridge deck in front of the companionway is very prone to flooding if pooped. Hopefully the wash boards will be in place but if they aren't, glub, glub, glub!!! Even with a bridge deck, the cabin will flood if the cockpit sides are higher than the bridge deck and no washboards in place. An open transom will drain faster but the cabin can be swamped without a bridge deck and/or wash boards in place when pooped. Worse for the open transom is there is no transom to keep the wave from boarding the boat.

A couple of years ago a traditional boat, think it was the Cheoy Lee knock off of the H28, sank entering the Golden Gate. Conditions weren't particularly bad and they were enjoying surfing into the Bay when an outsize wave pooped the boat and sank it almost instantly as the washboards weren't in place.

The Pogo style boats are great for short cruises, and solo ocean racing but they are not comfortable cruising boats. Very light weight compromises load carrying capacity, interiors are typically wide open for after race lounging but not for on ocean safety, storage compartments are minimal, they are VERY wet boats on the wind, and cockpits are marginal with flimsy back rests that look to be an extra cost option. For what most boats get used for, they are ideal but not for the long distance cruiser.
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