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post #31 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

why I advise clients to leave the ac "on" when they leave the house. yep 74 is a a sweet spot temp for most humans.

but let's not confuse water as a medium to heat transfer in heat ex-changers with "swamp cooling" evaporation coolers used most often in desert conditions (hot dry heat)
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post #32 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

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Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
Most of the "keel cooled" units I've seen use the keel or drain the cooler as an addition to the fan cooled condenser. The reason for this is; if by chance the boat were on the hard the keel cooler would not work very well and cause high condensing temps thereby causing high amp overload on the sensitive 12 volt compressors.
Your point is well taken regarding conventional keel coolers. The Isotherm SP series use modified seacocks as the refrigerant to sea water heat exchanger. Isotherm specifically addresses the use of their products on the hard. As long as you don't put the plugs in the sink drains the drains act as chimneys. You suffer the inefficiencies of air cooling of course but on the hard where shore power is generally available at least part time that is less of a factor.

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And someone suggested an engine drive. Assuming the cooling worked well the advantage to me was that I could recharge the batts as I cooled down the fridge.
I think the day of engine drive refrigeration, indeed any holding plate refrigeration, is past. 12 VDC is a better solution. As with anchors, the availability of something better does not make the previous solutions less good. I personally would not replace a working holding plate system but I wouldn't install a new one either.

A 12 VDC refrigeration system with an L- or J-shaped evaporator takes up less space in the cold box, keeps the temperature in the box more stable (good for the food), does not require manual intervention to maintain temperature, and can be pretty energy efficient. A 12 VDC system also allows using battery power originally derived from a number of sources: main engine alternator(s), generator, shore power, solar, wind, even water. That provides a great deal of energy redundancy. While if the battery bank fails entirely there is a problem, that problem is a whole lot bigger than just refrigeration. Battery banks are pretty reliable and if a single cell fails you can take that battery or pair out of the bank and soldier on.
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Last edited by SVAuspicious; 01-28-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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post #33 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
....
One reason the original VW Beetle was so cheap and simple, the engine was air cooled. And the efficiency (not to mention the heater) was crap compared to water-cooled designs. The second law of thermodynamics is it? Is inescapable, just like the rest of them. Little bits like plumbing leaks, return on cost, and critical parts in unreachable places, that's quite another story.(G)
I agree with everything you wrote here, but .... the failure points double when water cooling is involved. Air cooling is definitely less efficient, but it's the KISS principle. Use air cooling, ... Go to a larger compressor/evaporator and the increased current draw and you have a bulletproof refrigeration system. Just add another solar panel!!

My point is, if any of these components fail, it's not going to sink the boat!!

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post #34 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post

I think the day of engine drive refrigeration, indeed any holding plate refrigeration, is past. 12 VDC is a better solution. As with anchors, the availability of something better does not make the previous solutions less good. I personally would not replace a working holding plate system but I wouldn't install a new one either.

A 12 VDC refrigeration system with an L- or J-shaped evaporator takes up less space in the cold box, keeps the temperature in the box more stable (good for the food), does not require manual intervention to maintain temperature, and can be pretty energy efficient. A 12 VDC system also allows using battery power originally derived from a number of sources: main engine alternator(s), generator, shore power, solar, wind, even water. That provides a great deal of energy redundancy. While if the battery bank fails entirely there is a problem, that problem is a whole lot bigger than just refrigeration. Battery banks are pretty reliable and if a single cell fails you can take that battery or pair out of the bank and soldier on.
At the time I set up a refer... in 1989 12v refers were not what they are today I believe. I am not recommending MY solution to others... and concluded that if we were to replace we would go with a 12v system. This solution worked me and it continues to be acceptable for the way we sail... and as it remains in good working order... I see no reason to rip it out and install a new one. But like so many of the boat's systems... electricity is mission critical..
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post #35 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

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Originally Posted by Bill-Rangatira View Post
I have pretty much decided I need to do a remodel / redesign of my Galley. One of my primary concerns is the icebox is under the starboard quarterberth and thinkin if i give up some storage under the galley i could fit it in the starboard galley and get more depth and room for better insulation maybe eventually goin to a holdover plar or some other type of refer system. With the change from the old stove with oven to a gimballed wallas 1000 with no oven i have alot of space below there perhaps if i moved some storage to there i would be able to fit the icebox in the counter top.
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any constructive ideas and suggestions would be helpfull.
I am not afraid to build new cabinets from scratch
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A galley redesign could be fairly simple. Adding refrigeration gets complicated. Plus refrigeration could change the way you sail when charging becomes a bigger part of the equation. Going to refrigeration, the charging - battery storage, etc. is a big project. A portable might be a good way to supplement your refrigeration and get a taste of how much energy you'll need with the way you sail.

Looking at the line drawing of your boat, it's hard to see where you could move the ice box from the starboard quarter berth (if I have this right), and fit everything in the port side galley.

I'd be more inclined to figure out a way to keep the icebox - starboard - and improve it.

However, I don't see much a way to do that except eliminate the quarter berth. You probably have thought of that?

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post #36 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

As to cooking being a "chick thing"...I (the male half of the crew) do almost all the cooking on Pendragon. It's just how we split up the duties. In theory we have room for an oven (Alberg 35) but the space is occupied by cabinets and it would take a lot of rebuilding not to mention insulating and buying an oven. So I stick to my two burner Origo which can produce quite amazing meals. (Not in the same class with @T37Chef but still good!).

A lot depends also on what sort of cruising you do. Ours tends to be sailing to some cove, anchoring, making a little dinner; not a lot of cooking underway, and a lot of making things that are essentially boiling water and heating something. Would we bake in an oven? not sure. We don't have propane and I have a feeling an alcohol heated oven would take forever. Still the idea of cookies would be wonderful
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post #37 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

Probably 20 years ago, not long after the USSR was dissolved, there was a news story about some hunters (Siberia?) in the wilderness who were being treated for radiation burns. They had snuggled up next to a nice warm aeronautical beacon during a storm. It turns out the USSR supposedly had 2000+ of these, located in remote places for aircraft navigation, each being a strontium thermal pile. Like we use on some spacecraft. And out of the 2000, apparently ~1800 had gotten lost, forgotten, mislaid, or just "someone else's problem" after the split up.
So for the really enterprising sailor, while Reddy Kilowatt still hasn't delivered, there's always a chance to go looking for surplus in the old USSR. Surely there's a way to get refrigeration oit of a strontium pile. (Just stack the old lead acid batteries around it.)
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post #38 of 48 Old 01-28-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

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Originally Posted by TomMaine View Post
A galley redesign could be fairly simple. ........

However, I don't see much a way to do that except eliminate the quarter berth. You probably have thought of that?

An Engel in a drawer oriented to slide aft and under the cockpit might work there.. You would lose the quarterberth but could retain a good sized seat; or sacrifice the berth, mount the engel (again in a drawer) athwartship and have a ton of extra counterspace/standup nav table and possibly more cabinetry and storage.

Accessing the newly created 'cockpit storage' might be trickier...

Ron

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".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
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post #39 of 48 Old 01-28-2017 Thread Starter
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Re: Galley Remodel

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomMaine View Post
A galley redesign could be fairly simple. Adding refrigeration gets complicated. Plus refrigeration could change the way you sail when charging becomes a bigger part of the equation. Going to refrigeration, the charging - battery storage, etc. is a big project. A portable might be a good way to supplement your refrigeration and get a taste of how much energy you'll need with the way you sail.

Looking at the line drawing of your boat, it's hard to see where you could move the ice box from the starboard quarter berth (if I have this right), and fit everything in the port side galley.

I'd be more inclined to figure out a way to keep the icebox - starboard - and improve it.

However, I don't see much a way to do that except eliminate the quarter berth. You probably have thought of that?
i use the quarter berth alot on both sides the icebox is starboard as is the galley i can have 1/2 of the countertop still useable and the lid of the icebox will be flush as well i have about 24" of depth under the counter to put it in but want to get 4" of insulation to get better R factor with out going to the aerogel panels
the refridgeration would be a holdover plate running off the engine directly so no power involved just need to runn the engine twice a day for 15 mins each which is normal for setting and picking up anchor
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post #40 of 48 Old 01-29-2017
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Re: Galley Remodel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill-Rangatira View Post
the refridgeration would be a holdover plate running off the engine directly so no power involved just need to runn the engine twice a day for 15 mins each which is normal for setting and picking up anchor
My experience is that keeping holding plate refrigeration at appropriate temperatures takes much more than 30 min / day especially in warmer climes.

sail fast and eat well, dave S/V Auspicious

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