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post #31 of 137 Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

Mike, here is a good article on hours of rest for commercial sailors.

It kind of demonstrstes why 6 and 6 is so popular with commercial vessels all over the world.

Key points are, minimum 10 hours rest in a 24 hour period, and those rest periods should not be divided into more than 2 periods. Basically, commercial sailors have to get, a minimum of 5 hours continuous uninterupted rest in a 24 hour period.

So 6 on, 6 off allows for very lean crew numbers while still giving the crew a decent sleep.

https://www.marineinsight.com/mariti...ing-stcw-2010/
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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

Thoughts on watches and insurance

Watch sched needs to allow crew to get the rest they need. 6hrs on watch feels too long and so fatigue and or boredom will set in. Not good. Too short, the off watch has no time to get decent sleep/rest.

When I did a 2 person delivery of 4,000+ miles we did 4 on and 4 off in the evening... and were more flexible during daylight. Conditions impact watch length.

For a 3 person crew... 3 on and 6 off is terrific.

++++

Insurance may be a waste of money for offshore. The likelihood of YOU surviving and the vessel be salvageable for repairs is almost zero. Change of surviving and having a repairable vessel in a "collision" off shore is also almost zero.

Coverage while local cruising "close" to shore where you can encounter other boats and so forth... makes some sense. But you need to evaluate the risk/benefit. I have owned Shiva since 85 and spent 4 yrs out of the USA in the Caribe. I have had no incidents over 34 yrs and more than 50k miles. I am required to have liability insurance at boat yards and marinas where I winter the boat.

Insurance is great idea... but the entire model of insurance seems flawed. We can see how the insurers are part of what's wrong with the health care "industry". I presume it's not that different in the marine industry.

pay attention... someone's life depends on it
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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLausin View Post

My question to the forum is how often do you do passages to get to different cruising grounds? And what influences your decision to do a passage? Did the length and type of sailboat you purchased affect that decision? Was the length and type of sailboat you purchased based on the idea that at some point you will do passages or not?

I haven't had much time so haven't read this thread.

The ones I do are affected by the seasons and visas.

If in the Caribbean and its coming up to summer you have 2 choices: Stay in Grenada boring your sox off or get the hell of a long way north out of the zone.
Similar when in the USA and the visa is about the expire... either head to Canada for a winter or cross the Atlantic to Europe.
The Pacific... as soon as you go through Panama you have a growing hurricane season growing up your butt... you either move on or you get engulfed by the next season.

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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

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Originally Posted by GLausin View Post
Perhaps "passage" wasn't the correct word to use in this circumstance, but you got exactly what I was meaning by it.
I think everyone understood you use of the word "passage" and if they didnt they should go for a sail for 3 weeks non-stop and then compare it to whatever else flitted through their mind.



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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

I have always done 4 on and 8 off with three crew and 3 on and 9 off for four. This allows every crew member a solid sleeping time of at least 6-7 hours. We never vary the watch schedule, never, but the crew off watch are free to do as they wish unless there is work to be done. I've found that the regular rhythms of a set schedule make it easier for everybody to sleep. I also allow the watch stander to set the tone of the watch. That person can ask that he/she be left alone in the cockpit or have others around as their mood dictates. There is always a dedicated cook, with basic meals planned at the time of shopping.
When sailing long distances with just two, with a vane gear or autopilot that actually steers at all times I often do 12 on and 12 off, 2 AM to 2 PM. As the watch stander is not tied to the helm, this isn't a difficult watch and the watch stander can fish, keep a good look out and generally keep themselves busy around the boat. This gives the off watch person plenty of free time and fatigue seems to be minimized.
I do not allow pod casts, music with earbuds, head phones or reading on watch. No more than 12 minutes (the time it would take an 18 knot ship to become a potential collision risk if below the horizon and not seen at minute 1) may be spent below or being inattentive to our surroundings. Single handing I use an old fashioned mechanical kitchen timer for this. This formula has only failed me once and that was a military ship.
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post #36 of 137 Old 4 Weeks Ago
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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

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Originally Posted by SanderO View Post
Insurance may be a waste of money for offshore. The likelihood of YOU surviving and the vessel be salvageable for repairs is almost zero. Change of surviving and having a repairable vessel in a "collision" off shore is also almost zero.
The problem is unless you are that guy who spent 1000 days sailing a big heart shape path in the Atlantic, your offshore passage is going to end in a relatively short time. It isn't possible to drop coverage for the offshore passage, and pick it up again near shore.

If an insured boat is lost offshore, one gets the insurance money - kind of the whole point of insurance. Lots of people in recent times have lost the boat but not their lives.

Mark

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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

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I think everyone understood you use of the word "passage" and if they didnt they should go for a sail for 3 weeks non-stop and then compare it to whatever else flitted through their mind.
Sure, I still understand a passage to be a non stop voyage between two different places on a vessel, regardless of length of the voyage. Just like the navigation texts say
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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

As others have mentioned coastal cruising can be just as dangerous as an ocean crossing. I keep reminding my self that you don't have to be on an ocean passage for things to go bad. You can have all the rescue resources less than an hour even minutes away and still not make it:

Exhibit A:
As of 8:00 p.m. on Sunday, May 4, the Coast Guard was searching for a missing boater near Jacobs Point, New York, today. Missing is Ciro Stellgas, 59, of Selden, New York.
Riverhead Police Department notified Coast Guard Sector Long Island Sound stating that they received a call at around 1:00 p.m. from an individual aboard a sailing vessel stating it was taking on water approximately 3 miles north of Jacobs Point.

According to Riverhead Police, Stellgas was reportedly sailing from James Creek, New York, on Thursday, headed to Port Washington aboard a 26í fiberglass sailboat named ďMACĒ with New York State registration number NY7059FR.

Agencies involved in the search:
An MH-60 helicopter rescue crew from Coast Guard Air Station Cape Cod
A rescue crew aboard the Coast Guard Cutter Tiger Shark, an 87-foot patrol boat homeported in Newport, R.I.
A 45-foot rescue boatcrew from Coast Guard Station New Haven
A 45-foot rescue boatcrew from Coast Guard Station New London
Suffolk County Police Marine and Air division

Exhibit B:
https://www.soundingsonline.com/news...r-calm-weather

Southbound cruiser fell off his Formosa 41 ketch without a life jacket while entering a N.J. inlet

Vanorsdell was making his first passage to the islands for the winter.

On the evening of Monday, Oct. 6, after a long day of sailing south along the New Jersey coast, Vanorsdell lowered his sails off Barnegat Inlet, his destination for the day. His body was found the following afternoon floating about four miles to the east in the Atlantic. New Jersey State Police, who with the Coast Guard searched for the Hanover, Mass., sailor, say he apparently slipped, fell overboard and drowned. It was an abrupt end to a longtime fantasy for the 61-year-old Vanorsdell, who friends say was heading south for the first time for a footloose winter in the islands.

Now the three boats were just off Barnegat Inlet. Vachon turned in before Myette, who looked back and saw Vanorsdell lowering his sails. All of the sails on Vanorsdellís Second Wind were hanked on, with no roller furling system. The headsail and main were down when Myette entered the inlet.

But looking back again, Myette saw Second Wind, with the mizzen still raised, sail past the end of the inlet. He took up his microphone and called Vanorsdell on the radio. There was no answer to his repeated calls, both on the radio and a cell phone.

A recreational angler nearby on a powerboat heard the calls and volunteered to check on Second Wind, Myette says. The angler found the engine running and the radio on, but no one on board.

Mike
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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

That sucks Outbound, only strengthens my resolve to get off this rock. I'm sorry you are having so many problems.
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Re: Cruising vs. Passages

Watches: I would prefer longer, but my partner does not. So weíve compromised on 4 hours. We are at two-person crew. Our boat has good self-steering, but still requires on-watch monitoring.

Insurance: It is my observation, based mostly on these kinds of Internet threads and survey data, that boat insurance is getting costlier for most, with increasing limitations or demands placed on who or where or how people can cruise.

In a current thread over at CF a poll is showing nearly 40% of respondents have now moved to liability-only policies vs having full, or comprehensive coverage. In an insurance poll I ran two years ago the proportion was more like 15% liability-only vs 85% full coverage.

Itís dangerous to draw too many firm conclusions from such limited sampling, but it does suggest a shift.

Personally, Iíve studied accident rates for cruising level boats and am confident is saying the real risk for most of us is very low. Given this, I would happily go liability-only if my policy stopped passing the cost-benefit analysis.

(As it is, my comprehensive policy actually went down this past season. I am in Canada, cruising Newfoundland, which is not known to be the easiest sailing grounds. But for whatever reason, insurance is still pretty cheap up here.)

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