Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard? - SailNet Community
 2Likes
  • 2 Post By Jeff_H
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

Since there is not much info our there on these great racer/cruisers, I would like to know if anyone has one and uses is as a long range cruiser or lievaboard.

How well these boats behave off shore and how well these boats take heavier weather? Looking at the specs of this boat on sailboatdata.com, they are very bad for seacomfort. However, what I heard is the opposite, that these cruise and sail comfortably. Has anyone experience with these old IOR 1 tonner boats?
Seabreasy73 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago
Senior Member
 
paulk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 3,275
Thanks: 4
Thanked 84 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 20
 
Re: Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

If you read the promotional pieces from Farr Yacht Design,FYD | Farr 1104 (Design 51)
of course they sail beautifully. The promo brings up the big race wins they had in 1975 and 1976, sailing with six crew on the rail trying to hold it flat. The writing says they did away with running backstays, but the photos show them. Hmm. The mainsail is not as tiny as is typical on later IOR boats, and the jib not so huge, so maybe some other bad IOR traits are missing too. IOR and wet is one such trait. This is because the rule favored boats that were narrow forward. This one looks pretty narrow. Pounding in head seas is another. Many IOR boats have flat sections forward of the keel which pound when they get hit by waves, because designers were trying to fool the rule. IOR boats tend also to be beamy, because they need crew weight out on the rail to keep them flat. The beamy midsections tend to make them “squirrely” downwind, as the immersed hull shape gets weird. A “bustle” just in front of the rudder (again trying to fool the rule) seems to do things to rudder cavitation. Inattentive helmsmen end up broaching. This design does not seem to have tumblehome, which also helped to make immersed section shapes untenable, so perhaps some of the other features are also missing. There don’t seem to be many pictures of these boats out of the water. Imagining living aboard is difficult. The plan shows minimal storage space, tankage, or furniture. Cooking under way with the galley up by the mast would be like riding a roller coaster, pounding upwind or worrying about a downwind broach sending cook and kettle flying. The mast might prevent the cook from avoiding hot spills. Anchored might be more pleasant, but the huge cockpit would be a liability for any waves coming aboard. People have taken old IOR boats and cruised with them, but they should be aware of the possible issues so they can work to avoid having them become problems.

Last edited by paulk; 1 Week Ago at 10:52 PM.
paulk is online now  
post #3 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

Thanks, but I know all this. The particular boat I was looking at is the first iteration of the 1 tonner design (that is 1975). If you look at the pdf on the website, it states that the boat should be sailed flat (less than 20 degrees to achve maximum hull speed). Obviously, you can sail these boats short handed, I know peple who race these single handed. If you do not sail these boats competetively, just like with any other boats, you do not need 6 man crew. And I certainly do not plan to race, cruisng at 5-7 knots is plenty for me. Also, I will get sails made fit for cruising rather than racing.
Heard of people circumnavigating with these yachts, but not to many stories made it to the internet.
Farr designed Beneteau's first not much later and if you look at the hull shape of these boats or any newer boats, there is not much of a difference visually. At least not with the Farr design.
But I do not want to speculate, I'd rather hear from people who actually know the boat, but not too many of them seem to be on this forum. Would be great to hear some actual pros and cons.
Seabreasy73 is offline  
 
post #4 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago
Administrator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 8,842
Thanks: 41
Thanked 436 Times in 366 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

These boats are still pretty widely cruised and raced in New Zealand and Australia and seem to have a strong following. I researched the 1104 when I was researching my boat. I have never sailed one but was on a couple. The 1104's are a very respected design from that era and are not all that typical of the IOR boats of that era (more on that later).

The 1104's vary pretty widely in build method and quality of construction, varying from cold molded boats, to kit built boats, to factory finished models. The factory finished boats were very nicely finished and had an amazingly workable interior for a racer-cruiser. The kit boats and wooden versions vary very widely in layout, detailing and quality of construction.

These boats were not the garden variety IOR Racer boats of the day. Farr was really pushing the IOR envelope in a different direction than seemed to be happening elsewhere at that time. These boats were designed basically ignoring IOR rule beating on the theory that a fast boat can beat the penalties simply by being a fast boat. (For example the prototype of my Farr 11.6 beat the IOR 50 footers in the Sydney Hobart boat for boat and corrected to a win in class) So for example one big way that the 1104's were different from IOR boats of the era is that they have a lot of stability for an IOR boat and not a lot of drag. They do not not have the 'three plane" hull form of the IOR and instead have a fair amount of form stability and elliptical cross sections. They do not have the bustle but do have a skeg that helps with tracking (a little) and downwind directional stability. The elliptical hull form and fine entry also gave them a surprisingly comfortable motion for a boat of their 8,500 lb displacement.
Farr 1104 by

The 1104's have a fractional rig, making them easier to short-hand and a very large SA/D of around 24.3 as compared to the normal IOR 17-18 range. That allows them to get by with non-overlapping headsails for cruising. With a high ballast ratio carried on a deep keel, and moderate form stability, they had the stability to carry that much sail area. Since they do not have the emblematic IOR bustle, or the excessively large mast head spinnakers, so they don't wipe out as easily as most IOR boats and are much more manageable downwind under spinnaker. There are several rigs for the 1104's. The earliest full racing version boats had spaghetti masts and needed running backstays. Those were quickly over-penalized and so the later production racer cruiser versions have a much stiffer spar and do not require runners.

Some of the race versions have the galley at the main bulkhead over the center of buoyancy, and keel where motion is the least. Others have it aft by the companionway. Most have an enclosed head and pretty good storage.

As far as the living aboard and sailing them short handed, these are very forgiving boats for an IOR era boat nut not as forgiving as Farr's cruising boats of this and the following era. (i.e. Farr 11.6 and Farr 1020) but they are not far off of that. I went through some this same thought process when I bought my Farr 11.6. Previously the boat had been raced with a crew of 8 and I was told that it took 8 people to sail one. I race mine single- and double handed and still beat fully crewed race boats pretty easily. I have spoken with people who single and double handed the 11.6's all over the Atlantic with some very heavy weather passages from Capetown to Scotland and Capetown to the Caribbean.

So here's the deal on that, typically these boats were sailed with something like 1,800 to 2,000 lbs of crew and their gear and consumables. If you are carrying supplies down low in the boat, and are not racing, you can still carry roughly that much weight and not hurt safety and minimally impact sailing ability. The key is to develop a sail inventory for that purpose. In my case that meant high modulus sails, that are over reinforced to minimize stretch. They are cut a little full (essentially the leading edge of a genoa) with a lot of headstay sag in lighter air, and are flattened out by lots of backstay and minimal head stay sag in a breeze. This makes a sail that has a very wide wind range with good performance down to almost no wind and that can be carried into 20-25 knots apparent.

The big limitation to these boats as a live aboard is that they are only an 8,500 lb boat. Most boats will tolerate roughly 20-25% of their displacement in carrying capacity for water, fuel, food, spares and so on. While these elliptical hull forms are more tolerant than a heavy displacement round bottom boat (as a percentage of its disp), none the less you will be limited in how much 'stuff' you can put aboard before noticing it. I would think of the carrying capacity as being equal to something like Beneteau 31 or Catalina 34, but with a little more space, a lot more seaworthiness and 60 to 80 second a mile greater speed.

Jeff


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay

Last edited by Jeff_H; 1 Week Ago at 06:38 PM.
Jeff_H is online now  
post #5 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

Thanks Jeff. I think the 11.6 is pretty much same inside as the 1104, since there is that big transom/overhang on the 11.6's (at least the ones I've seen). Probably what counts, as you've pointed it out, what might really count is who built the boat. Production boats would probably better for certain. As for carrying capacity, if the boat can carry 8 people wth supplies for a week's cruise, for two people permanently on board probably should suffice.
I wonder if you have any issues, problem areas to look out for. As far as I heard these boats were well engineered and despite going on 40 years old, should have a few decades still left in them.
Seabreasy73 is offline  
post #6 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago
Administrator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 8,842
Thanks: 41
Thanked 436 Times in 366 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabreasy73 View Post
Thanks Jeff. I think the 11.6 is pretty much same inside as the 1104, since there is that big transom/overhang on the 11.6's (at least the ones I've seen). Probably what counts, as you've pointed it out, what might really count is who built the boat. Production boats would probably better for certain. As for carrying capacity, if the boat can carry 8 people wth supplies for a week's cruise, for two people permanently on board probably should suffice.
I wonder if you have any issues, problem areas to look out for. As far as I heard these boats were well engineered and despite going on 40 years old, should have a few decades still left in them.
Just to clarify this a little, an 11.6 was actually designed as a cruising boat and not as a racer. They turned out to be very successful race boats. The 11.6 is a 1500 lb heavier boat with quite a bit more water plane and so more carrying capacity, and more stability, but at the price of a little less performance. The 1104 was a designed as a race boat first and a cruiser second. They have a similar interior layout but everything is slightly miniaturized on the 1104, with the port double quarter berth on the 1104 really taking a hit in width, and engine access really diminished on the starboard side.

While the 11.6 does have 9 berths, no one in their right mind would cruise with 8 or 9 people for any length of time. The deal with all those berths were to house three crew members sleeping aft on the windward side in a distance race (hot bunking) or 9 crew members sleeping aboard before or after a day race. When they raced the 11.6 as a one design class in the Capetown to Rio race, they were generally raced with a total of 6 crew members and 3 on deck at any time.

For cruising, you could cruise an 11.6 for a week with 6 good friends (3 couples or two couples and a couple of kids), but that would be tough to do since you would be tearing down the double bunk at the dinette every morning and making it up every night. Sleeping in the pilot berths in port is torturous for an adult.

The 1104 has nowhere near that capacity. They were raced with 6 and I would think that it would be hard to cruise with more than 4. I would think that a couple could cruise one for long periods and might certainly be able to live aboard, although that would be compartively spartan living.

(That said, when I was 23, I lived for a while aboard my 25 foot wooden Folkboat with no interior at all beyond a duck boards for a cabin sole, a bucket for a head, a one burner alcohol stove that I when I used it I placed in on top of the duck board cockpit sole, a 2 gallon water jug and a big salad bowl for a sink. It was basically camping on a floating campsite)

Jeff


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay

Last edited by Jeff_H; 1 Week Ago at 08:42 PM.
Jeff_H is online now  
post #7 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago Thread Starter
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Re: Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

Fair enough. Yes, the 1104 was supposed to be a racer first and a cruiser second. And indeed, these boats were also supposed to be 3800 Kg (just under 8400 Lb), but the ones I have looked tipped the scale at 9435 lbs. Not much, but a 1000 pounds is a 1000 pounds. There is nothing extra on these boats and when I have asked the surveyor, he made the remark that "perhaps it is 3800 Kg without the engine and the basic fitout. Don't know if it is true or not, but certainly there was no other gear on the boat weighing 1000 lb. Anyhow, carried away. So, I suppose there is no real bad reason (obviously what was stated) that these boat should not suffice as coastal cruisers? Would you buy your Farr again?
Seabreasy73 is offline  
post #8 of 8 Old 1 Week Ago
Administrator
 
Jeff_H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 8,842
Thanks: 41
Thanked 436 Times in 366 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Re: Farr 1104 as a Cruising liveaboard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabreasy73 View Post
Fair enough. Yes, the 1104 was supposed to be a racer first and a cruiser second. And indeed, these boats were also supposed to be 3800 Kg (just under 8400 Lb), but the ones I have looked tipped the scale at 9435 lbs. Not much, but a 1000 pounds is a 1000 pounds. There is nothing extra on these boats and when I have asked the surveyor, he made the remark that "perhaps it is 3800 Kg without the engine and the basic fitout. Don't know if it is true or not, but certainly there was no other gear on the boat weighing 1000 lb. Anyhow, carried away. So, I suppose there is no real bad reason (obviously what was stated) that these boat should not suffice as coastal cruisers? Would you buy your Farr again?
The published displacement on these boats are measured per the IOR rule. Under the IOR rule, the boat was measured dead empty....no sails, tools, loose gear, tanks empty and so on.

By way of comparison, my boat has been weighed in normal loading with sails, cruising gear, ground tackle, partially full tanks and so on at a little over 12,000 lbs. But I have had to empty the boat out to haul in a yard with a crane that can only handle 11,000 lbs and have emptied the boat out and ended up well below the 11000 lb weight. But I doubt that she is down to her published design weight of 10,600 lbs.

In talking with the folks at Farr, the.fiberglass New Zealand version of the 11.6 was right at the design weight. The Australian version, which used the same moods was slightly heavier. The South African version (which my boat is a S.A. version) are thought to be even heavier. The cold molded versions vary from pretty close to design weight up to reported 4-500 lbs over weight.

The 1104 began as a version with an extended cockpit and shorter house. Those boats had a comparitively minimal interior. The production boats had a bigger house ,a much more complete interior, and a heavier mast and so probably would be heavier boats than the IOR design weight.

The net result, like any boat, the carrying capacity is reduced to the extent that the IOR level of bare boats exceed thier design weight.

I would absolutely buy another 11.6 in a heartbeat. I consider this to be the perfect boat for the way that I use a boat. I have been extremely impressed with her motion comfort, seaworthiness, forgiveness, ease of handling, and overall performance.

But realistically, there are faster 38 foot boats out there, the interior is slightly Spartan. My boat does not have a water heater or refrigeration, or a separate starting battery, or an oversized alternator. She doesn't have a dodger or Bimini. I wish she had operable portlights over the gallery and nav. Station. I like that she has a Yanmar 3gm30 which is a lighter engine than the original 3cyl Buhk with cheaper parts. I like the 80 gallon water tankage, but don't like that there is only 12-14 gallon fuel tank. (which is large enough for one whole season of sailing for me and has enough fuel for a sistership to sail from South Africa to the Caribbean).

The stock 11.6 IOR style deck plan would have been a real pain to sail short hand. So, I have rearranged the deck plan for single handed racing and cruising. I might want to have running backstays to use in extremely heavier air and maybe a masthead assym with a movable pole for extremely light air.

The other thing that I would say is that these are pretty technical boats to sail. These boats minimally can be thought of as rewarding skillful sailors and perhaps even require a reasonable level of skill to sail since they have a lot of sail area and a huge mainsail. But having sailed my boat in next to no wind, lots of time sailing in 20 knot winds, up to 40 knots plus and have been very impressed at both ends of the wind range.

The 1104 would be less forgiving than the 11.6 and is slower boat, but should be a good costal cruiser for a couple. Depending on how the specific 1104 is equipped this should be a pretty easy boat to handle if you are a skilled sailor.

Jeff


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay
Jeff_H is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome