Production Boats and the Limits - Page 225 - SailNet Community
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post #2241 of 5353 Old 10-21-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
In other words, you can offer no argument for the inherent superiority of those cleats - or the manner in which they have been mounted - over a simpler, more traditional approach...

;-)

"Lots of failures", eh? So, how many more keels have to fall off of Beneteau 40.7s, for instance, before one might rightfully begin to question their engineering?
Quote:
Originally Posted by seaner97 View Post
I
Which is why I didn't comment on the cleat. It looks stupid and chafe inducing, and anything that moves in a marine environment needs maintenance, lubricants and is more likely to fail at the least opportune time, but if you want one, go for it. Me? Give me the old fashioned ones. I'm pretty good at watching where I step.
Hinckley anyone?



Go get 'em Chicken Little(s).
I think I already stated Hinkley isn't above some bad design decisions to chase a market, no? I would also point out- that ain't the cleat in question. I agree that it looks slippery, but significantly less chafe inducing. You still have to deploy it, and I bet there is maintenance. I'd rather varnish than oil my friggin cleats. But if I've got Hinkley money, I guess I can afford to add that to the yard bill. I think your bait and switch kind of made our point for us. Better designs cost (although the best option here still seems cheaper). Poorer ones that are imitations are put on as eye candy to sell boats.
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post #2242 of 5353 Old 10-21-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by seaner97 View Post
I think I already stated Hinkley isn't above some bad design decisions to chase a market, no? I would also point out- that ain't the cleat in question. I agree that it looks slippery, but significantly less chafe inducing. You still have to deploy it, and I bet there is maintenance. I'd rather varnish than oil my friggin cleats. But if I've got Hinkley money, I guess I can afford to add that to the yard bill. I think your bait and switch kind of made our point for us. Better designs cost (although the best option here still seems cheaper). Poorer ones that are imitations are put on as eye candy to sell boats.
Yes, bad design decisions like making contemporary designed sailboats. Those cleats look very well made.





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post #2243 of 5353 Old 10-21-2015
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm, yet ANOTHER of my pet peeves... ;-)

For the purposes of the use of an aft spring to assist in coming alongside, it's astonishing in my experience how few builders get the placement of a single midship cleat right... They are virtually ALWAYS placed too far forward, and serve to tend to pull the bow in rather sharply as soon as one powers ahead on the spring... The placement amidships, at the point of maximum beam, on most boats results in being too far forward, for that particular purpose... Which, in my opinion, is one of the most important usages of a midship cleat, particularly for a single or shorthanded crew, or anyone who might not have some assistance from the dock...

A rough guestimate for most boats, is that the ideal placement is back around Station 6 or 7... And on many boats, even a spring from a cockpit winch can be a better alternative than a midship cleat placed poorly relative to the boat's pivot point...

Yet another reason perforated toerails can come in handy... On boats with a single poorly placed midship cleat, you can simply shackle your spring to the spot where the builder should have put the cleat to begin with... ;-)

Also, midship cleats - no matter how big they are - are never big enough if you're rigging for a real blow at dockside :-) For no other single cleat will have as many lines made fast to it...

On larger boats, of course, 2 or more midship cleats are the way to go, then the chance of the after one being in a good position are pretty good...

On this Freedom 45, for example, this midship cleat was WAY too far forward, should have at least been back by the lifeline gate, even then it probably would have been further forward than I would have liked, back around the second black fender probably would have been about right...


I don't understand your point. That has nothing to do with old versus new, cheap versus expensive materials, but with a boat being well designed or not. Almost all modern mass production boats are very well designed (by the best NA) and the middle cleats are where they are supposed to be. I have no doubt that Farr, Finot or Marc Lombard now exactly were the cleats should be positioned to be effective.

Very few mass production boats are not designed by top NA, wit the notable exception of some American brands and that may explain for instance those Hunter cleat oddities, not to mention the hull shape of some of the last designed boats.





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Last edited by PCP; 10-21-2015 at 08:09 AM.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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I don't understand your point. That has nothing to do with old versus new, cheap versus expensive materials, but with a boat being well designed or not. Almost all modern mass production boats are very well designed (by the best NA) and the middle cleats are where they are supposed to be. I have no doubt that Farr, Finot or Marc Lombard now exactly were the cleats should be positioned to be effective.

Very few mass production boats are not designed by top NA, wit the notable exception of some American brands and that may explain for instance those Hunter cleat oddities, not to mention the hull shape of some of the last designed boats.

P my friend, don't give these designers too much credit. There are many examples of poor design features that these guys have come up with. The Europeans designers are no better and brighter than the NA ones. I will give them credit for being market leaders over the last several years but these things ebb and flow. When they include huge areas of fixed deck skylites that leak almost when they leave the factory and owners spending gobs of money trying to achieve a dry interior to no avail I don't consider it good design. When they design boats with the Euro look of square corners on the interior finish I don't consider that good design. The complete removal of a proper bilge is not good design. Designing boats where they put wiring in between the liner and hull making any future repairs or modification almost impossible is not good design.
Their designs have great sight lines and a very bright open feel but few places to really be able to grab on to when underway are not great designs.
They have been the leader in designing boats that are OK sailors and look great at rest and the most important thing is that they sell in large numbers but so do cheap watches.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Originally Posted by overbored View Post
Seasmart Cleat. I have installed and used these cleats. they are very High quality, very strong and have not seen any chafing from them. expensive about $270 for the 7" Aluminum cleat. pull hard enough and you will get the cleat off but you will be getting a lot of deck with it.
Hmmm...

"Bollard opens and shuts with an O-ring which keeps the pistons watertight.""

"Pistons?" "O-Rings?" Sure, nothing to possibly go wrong there, right? After all, we all know things like O-Rings on the exterior of a yacht sailed in salt water or the harsh sun of the tropics will rarely, if EVER, be compromised, eh?

;-)

Putting the KISS principle aside, I still have 2 main problems with that sort of cleat, and fail to see how they are an improvement over a style like this:





As I mentioned earlier, mooring cleats can often be pressed into service as a sort of 'winch', when sweating or snubbing a line, and often under more extreme circumstances... There's a reason winches are cylindrical, rather than square, with sharp 'corners' ;-) I found on the Nomen style cleats - with the rather sharp turn the line makes over and under the horns of the cleat - that it was difficult to ease the line smoothly, particularly when using a knobbier brait rope... The line would tend to hang up or 'grab' the corners to some extent, then suddenly jump free... Under a heavy load, smoothness of operation is critical, and the opposite might lead to a loss of control, or even potential injury, on a larger boat in a challenging situation...

But the larger problem with that design, is that the Sea Smart will have greater integrity in the strength of its attachment to the deck in a 'lengthwise' direction, than it will when subjected to a loading from a direction more perpendicular to the 3 mounting bolts placed inline...





Especially, as a side load from the cleated line will be transferred up towards the horns of the cleat, and away from the base, inducing a force that will want to 'pry' the base from the deck, or at least bend the pistons...

The 4 bolt SQUARE mounting pattern of the Less Sexy But Lower Maintenance cleat I've pictured, offers the same resistance to any load, no matter from which direction it is applied...
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Last edited by JonEisberg; 10-21-2015 at 08:53 AM.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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Yes, bad design decisions like making contemporary designed sailboats. Those cleats look very well made.


Ok, we've established you are using that word incorrectly, so I would encourage you to find another one that you think is similar.
As I stated above- that IS NOT THE CLEAT or the ORIENTATION that was being discussed, and I clearly stated that it looked well made but had MOVING parts that I thought were a bad idea. Outbound added another I hadn't thought of with the idea that they have to be deployed, which is another step in an emergency.
But the Sea Dog looking, vertically oriented, flip out POS on that HUNTER is not, in almost any way other than sharing a category of being retractable/flush mounted, analogous to the cleat on that, clearly superior, Hinkley.
I also stated that even that Sea Dog POS looking thing might actually be ok even though I think it's a bad idea. I was pretty freaking clear it was an opinion.
I've got an old boat. I plan on keeping it. If I bought a new boat, I'd plan on handing it down to my kids (it's a half a million to a million bleeping dollars or euros after all- it should outlive me!) so I'd want the stuff to keep working. My experience is that in a marine environment, without constant maintenance, these sort of parts corrode or gum up in about 5-7 years, max. Oil/lubricants attract dirt, somehow even if you attempt to protect them with covers or some such.
If you (PCP) want to drop 500K-750K or more every 5 years because you think the contemporary (which means produced now and nothing more than that) technology is inherently better, go for it. But new does not equal better. Some things new are truly improvements, but not all are.
Something tells me you were first in line for these
100 Worst Cars of All Time
Because they were all contemporary designs at one time.

Ocean- that which covers 3/4 of a world made for man, who has no gills.

Last edited by seaner97; 10-21-2015 at 11:39 AM.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

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S- been a doc for many years and have done phase two and three trials. Issues of bias are well know and to extent possible excluded. That said for a new drug regardless of how well studied prior to release it is understood you will not be able to pass "final" judgement on safety/ efficacy, or risk/ benefit until a hundred thousand patient years have passed (100,000 pt/yrs means any permutations of years and number of patients using the drug equaling that amount).
Translating to boats and boat equipment until it has been tested in the field by a sufficient number of people you just don't really know how well it will work and survive in usage. We blew up the tang fitting for the vang where it attaches to the boom. Weld failed and plate above weld cracked. On same passage sistershipdid the same. Called vendor. They were very responsive and shipped out fully casted replacement. It has yet to fail. Vendors said " we like Outbounds and J boats.... You owners sail your boats hard. The Outbounds get sailed a lot. We've been making this part for awhile. This is the first failure. Seeing it fall on two boats tells us we need to re engineer. Nothing like field testing."
Out, as you know, but for the others, a biological system is infinitely more complex than a mechanical one if for only the reason that you can't really fully limit your variables. Mechanical testing can be done to extremes prior to field testing and design to (more expensive) tolerances far in excess of what you would ever see at sea. That can't be done in biological systems (at least not ethically).
In a value market driven boat (the Benehunterlinas) they are forced into tradeoffs that sell, regardless of if they sail or function well. In general, they've done fairly well in the sail well category (probably because bad sailing boats wouldn't get repeat customers in 5-10 years when they want the 'contemporary design' upgrades), but they do cut some corners that wouldn't be on your outbound. Different horses. And that's ok Smack. But your Hunter- a Hinkley it is not.

Ocean- that which covers 3/4 of a world made for man, who has no gills.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

We can all agree that moving parts = failure points, as such require routine maintenance to ensure proper operation in time of need.

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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Those retractable cleats on the Hinckley are beautiful so I can see the market appeal. They also have some potential advantages in reducing the snagging of sheets especially for the spring cleats. Importantly they are placed so they are in sheer and look to have better quality and engineering than the Hunter equivalent (which you would expect from the price difference between the yachts).

Many of the disadvantages have already been mentioned. I also would be concerned about two extra holes drilled through the deck and core to accommodate the pins when they are retracted. The better boatbuilders will use a solid laminate over the cleat area, but I suspect not all. Even with a solid laminate will this be deep enough to seal the pins or are O rings necessary? What about crevice corrosion of the pins that will sit in in salt water?

Are they strong enough? Probably for most applications, but what about in a storm holding the anchor rode, or pulling the boat off a sandbank, or deploying a drogue?

Anyway, I would not tick the option box.

I am reminded of the Porsche option list where FOR NO EXTRA COST you could leave out air conditioning, sound system etc. The idea was to make the car lighter and simpler which ultimately, for some, made it the better car.

Simple, strong, reduced maintenance. KISS. That is what I want from a cruising boat. It seems I may be in a minority.
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Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Hmmm...

"Bollard opens and shuts with an O-ring which keeps the pistons watertight.""

"Pistons?" "O-Rings?" Sure, nothing to possibly go wrong there, right? After all, we all know things like O-Rings on the exterior of a yacht sailed in salt water or the harsh sun of the tropics will rarely, if EVER, be compromised, eh?

;-)

Putting the KISS principle aside, I still have 2 main problems with that sort of cleat, and fail to see how they are an improvement over a style like this:





As I mentioned earlier, mooring cleats can often be pressed into service as a sort of 'winch', when sweating or snubbing a line, and often under more extreme circumstances... There's a reason winches are cylindrical, rather than square, with sharp 'corners' ;-) I found on the Nomen style cleats - with the rather sharp turn the line makes over and under the horns of the cleat - that it was difficult to ease the line smoothly, particularly when using a knobbier brait rope... The line would tend to hang up or 'grab' the corners to some extent, then suddenly jump free... Under a heavy load, smoothness of operation is critical, and the opposite might lead to a loss of control, or even potential injury, on a larger boat in a challenging situation...

But the larger problem with that design, is that the Sea Smart will have greater integrity in the strength of its attachment to the deck in a 'lengthwise' direction, than it will when subjected to a loading from a direction more perpendicular to the 3 mounting bolts placed inline...





Especially, as a side load from the cleated line will be transferred up towards the horns of the cleat, and away from the base, inducing a force that will want to 'pry' the base from the deck, or at least bend the pistons...

The 4 bolt SQUARE mounting pattern of the Less Sexy But Lower Maintenance cleat I've pictured, offers the same resistance to any load, no matter from which direction it is applied...
your engineering analysis is flawed. you are only looking at the top of the Seasmart cleat. when mounted properly the cleats bollards extend below the deck and increase the resistance to a side load which will far exceed the four bolt model which is held in by smallish countersunk head machine screws. In actuality either of these cleats will work as intended if the deck is designed properly for the mounting of the corresponding cleat.
So far the Seasmart cleat has performed far better then the old simple cleats for us. we have never gotten a spinnaker sheet or any other line caught on the cleat unless we wanted it to. they have held the boat to the slip or dock when needed. To us docking is something we only do when we can't stay out sailing. That is why we bought a sailboat. if I wanted a docking boat I would get a steel tugboat.
so it depends on the intended purpose of the cleat that is selected as to which one works the best. there is no perfect cleat and no perfect boat.

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